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Gary Collard

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Since: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 897



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:54 am
Post subject: Checking in to say congrats and to commiserate, respectively
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>la-lakers, others (more info?)

I’ve been spending most of my free time the last two weeks in the hospital
(somebody close to me, serious but not life-altering or threatening, thanks
for asking) and thus missed what was doubtless tons of fun here.

Just wanted to take a minute to say congratulations to the Celts and their
fans for getting to 17 and keeping us stuck on 15. I know how good it felt
to me to win one after a seemingly endless 12 year drought, I can only
imagine how it must feel after 22.

From the Boston end, they went all-in for a maximum 1-2 year window of
contention at the expense of some tough times to follow. It was a bold
move, and to their credit they got their championship out of it. It’s not
something I would want for my team, but when I’m 6 years removed from a
dynasty it’s pretty easy for me to say that; if I was two decades removed
from relevance and four decades removed from dynasty I’d probably see it
differently. Kudos to them in any case, it paid off and who cares if it’s
another decade or two…as the great Chuck Thompson would say when the
Orioles were going well…Ain’t the beer cold?

From the LA end, they were playing with house money since early May and
are well ahead of schedule. But ultimately, being asked to beat one of the
top 3 teams in Celtics franchise history while missing their second best
player to injury, and then additionally being asked to do so 5 times in 7
games, was just too much, too soon for this group. This is a team built to
win multiple titles, and if they don’t win at least two in the next five
years it will frankly be a major disappointment. This year’s run came
completely out of left field and it’s hard to be disappointed for more than
about 5 minutes at the outcome of the Finals.

Beyond the obvious – probably the biggest comeback in Finals history and
probably the most one-sided officiated game in Finals history, I think this
thing came down to experience more than anything. I’m not sure a team has
ever won with such young and green role players, and the difference in
experience off the pine was for me the thing that made the difference.

I’m not sure that Allen should not have been the MVP; I thought he was the
choice after game 5 and while Pierce (or as Heinsohn calls him, Piss) may
or may not have passed him in game 6, I am not surprised he was chosen -
his game 1 performance wrapped up both the MVP and an Oscar in one fell swoop.

LVP’s were pretty clear. I’m still amazed the Lakers were able to win a
game where Perkins did not play, but he still was able to decide the series
by leaving game 4. If only he had stuck around that game, I’d have one
less bottle of good champagne left. And if only he’d not left G4 but still
played more overall, that bottle would still be in some danger.

LVP from the other end, I’m thinking you guys have gotten together to buy
Ra_manovic a Rolex by now, what an asset he turned out to be for you. He
just might be the worst player ever to start for an NBA finalist, good
offseason research project there.

As for what I missed here, I expect:

- there were healthy doses of outrage from the LA end and denial from the
Boston end at the 20-something point bump Boston got from the game 2 crew.
OTOH, while we can say that each team’s players beat the other team’s
players 3 times, we can’t say that it decided the series, as the whole
dynamic going forward changes at 1-1 instead of 2-0. That’s just the
breaks, and why you play the season to get home court so that you’re more
likely to get a game decided like that in your favor. They even out over
time, but not usually in a 7 game series, next time have the better record
if you don’t like it (getting fewer people to bet on you would help as
well, no surprise that the game in question was the one with the huge line
move). That the Lakers won a January home game vs Memphis due to
officiating and lost one in the NBA Finals to the same fate, bad timing but
that’s basketball, too bad.

- there was joy from Boston and despair from LA at the comeback game.
Ironic that it was really a clone of game 2, the difference being that it
started earlier and thus left enough time to get finished. One thing is
for sure, the same thing happened in each game – either Boston choked in G2
*and* LA choked in G4, or LA showed greatness and heart in G2 *and* Boston
showed greatness and heart in G4. Whichever of those is your take, it’s
remarkable that two such similar games happened in one series (and LA had
been in two of those the previous series, adding to the oddity). And I
reiterate…damn you Perk for leaving that game!

- and finally, there was more joy from Boston and disgust from LA at the
way the Lakers quit on defense in game 6. Not sure what to make of this,
it’s probably mostly due to the team being young but you wonder if there
wasn’t also some carryover from the guys who had witnessed their team
leader quitting on them in a game 7 two years back, and just following his
lead. Even if it was subconscious, you have to ask the question. At any
rate, I think it helps in the long run, as I think it makes it easier to
summon the will and the drive to come back working harder in the offseason.
Much as the way LA lost in '84 made the '85 title a foregone conclusion,
this should make them even more dangerous next year than had they lost a
game 7 barnburner.

- and in the big picture I’m sure there was a lot of good stuff from the
Durrells and brinks of the groups and a lot of idiocy from the usual
suspects on both sides (special props to “skeptic” for throwing out some of
the dumbest basketball talk I’d ever read before I took leave – like his
take on 2008 Lakers as a better defense than Russell’s 1960’s
Celtics…genius!). And, doubtless, a bunch of uber-idiotic trolling from
new and old alike – Kobe as the rapist and KG as the woman beater and such.
I imagine the bad comedy was topped/bottomed only by the unintentional
comedy masquerading as serious hoop talk.

Enjoy the draft and Olympics, guys, I’ll be checking in when I can.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard.RemoveThis@yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"A wheelchair? Seriously? ... We’ve dinged our knee up harder on
our computer desk." -- The Big Lead on Paul Pierce

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VicXnews

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Since: Aug 26, 2004
Posts: 2627



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:04 am
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Gary Collard <dm.DeleteThis@ddd.com> wrote in news:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01:

> KG as the woman beater

first I've heard of this...
hope all is well with you and yours now...

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Jay Michaels

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Since: Feb 04, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:54 am
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"Gary Collard" <dm.TakeThisOut@ddd.com> wrote in message
news:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01...
> I’ve been spending most of my free time the last two weeks in the hospital
> (somebody close to me, serious but not life-altering or threatening,
> thanks for asking) and thus missed what was doubtless tons of fun here.
>
> Just wanted to take a minute to say congratulations to the Celts and their
> fans for getting to 17 and keeping us stuck on 15.

You meant to say stuck on 14, right?
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mozark

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Since: Apr 21, 2007
Posts: 164



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:12 am
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Sure glad this wasn't about politics. All the best to you and yours.

Very interesting piece.

> But ultimately, being asked to beat one of the top 3 teams in Celtics franchise history

This part I don't get. This Celtics club, IMHO, would not have beaten
ANY of the Bird teams from the 80s. Especially not the 81 or 86 teams.
Neither, going back, would they have been on par with the Cowens/
Havlicek champions, and certainly not the great Russell teams of the
60s. (Of course, judged in their own context. If we could yank those
players ahead 40 years, I think it's very possible those dudes would
be CBA-level. I mean, Bailey Howell??)

This was an adequete offensive team, with outstanding defense. (Yet
not as good D as the 90s Bulls or Knicks, or the Bad Boy Pistons.) I
think what was historic, and something we could not have known
beforehand, was the fanatical drive and hunger. The very thing the
Lakers lacked.

But put this Celtic team on the same court as a team with similar
determination -- such as any of the Jordan teams, Bird teams,
Showtime, 01 Lakers, Chuck Daly Pistons, Moses 767ers, Frazier Knicks,
etc -- and they'd be pretty mediocre.

How 'bout that Obama?
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Alson Wong

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Since: Dec 18, 2007
Posts: 629



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:57 am
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"Jay Michaels" <youwillneverfindspam.TakeThisOut@myemailaddress.com> wrote in message
news:g3qcnu$7d8$1@aioe.org...
>
> You meant to say stuck on 14, right?

Gary also counts the 1948 NBL championship, which was the season before the
Lakers joined the BAA. The two leagues merged in 1949 to form the NBA. This
is somewhat akin to the situation with the NFL and AFL in the 1960s,
although the NBL generally had superior players compared to the BAA.
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Bryant Durrell

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Since: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 334



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:30 am
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In article <Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01>, Gary Collard <dm.TakeThisOut@ddd.com> wrote:
>I’ve been spending most of my free time the last two weeks in the hospital
>(somebody close to me, serious but not life-altering or threatening, thanks
>for asking) and thus missed what was doubtless tons of fun here.

Hey, man. I'm sorry to hear that.

>From the Boston end, they went all-in for a maximum 1-2 year window of
>contention at the expense of some tough times to follow. It was a bold
>move, and to their credit they got their championship out of it. It’s not
>something I would want for my team, but when I’m 6 years removed from a
>dynasty it’s pretty easy for me to say that; if I was two decades removed
>from relevance and four decades removed from dynasty I’d probably see it
>differently. Kudos to them in any case, it paid off and who cares if it’s
>another decade or two…as the great Chuck Thompson would say when the
>Orioles were going well…Ain’t the beer cold?

Crossing my fingers for three years of window. It gets sticky after that.
A fair amount of money comes off the books in 2010 thanks to Allen and
Scal. Rondo will need to be resigned, however. Ask me again next year
after we find out if Rondo takes another quantum leap upwards.

--
Bryant Durrell // durrell.TakeThisOut@innocence.com // durrell.TakeThisOut@gmail.com
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Bryant Durrell

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Since: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 334



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Checking in to say congrats and to commiserate, respectively [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <588c1ce7-ef6c-4978-aebc-bb04ff42c6f0 DeleteThis @c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
mozark <swooning DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>This part I don't get. This Celtics club, IMHO, would not have beaten
>ANY of the Bird teams from the 80s. Especially not the 81 or 86 teams.
>Neither, going back, would they have been on par with the Cowens/
>Havlicek champions, and certainly not the great Russell teams of the
>60s. (Of course, judged in their own context. If we could yank those
>players ahead 40 years, I think it's very possible those dudes would
>be CBA-level. I mean, Bailey Howell??)

I think they'd beat the 70s teams. They wouldn't beat '86. They have
one of the top 25 players of all time in Garnett, plus -- let's say one
of the three best Celtics scorers of all time.

Here's Bob Ryan on the subject:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/06/19/gr...est_of_

KG vs. Russell defensively would be absolutely fascinating. Russell
is obviously the better player, but I'd love to see that matchup.

--
Bryant Durrell // durrell DeleteThis @innocence.com // durrell DeleteThis @gmail.com
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Skeptic

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Since: Jul 30, 2004
Posts: 1232



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:13 pm
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"VicXnews" <news RemoveThis @news.com> wrote in message
news:2n_7k.1158$oY2.451@newsfe21.lga...
> Gary Collard <dm RemoveThis @ddd.com> wrote in news:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01:
>
>> KG as the woman beater
>
> first I've heard of this...
> hope all is well with you and yours now...

Gasol was his woman.
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big normy

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Since: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 12



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:34 pm
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Gary Collard <dm.TakeThisOut@ddd.com> wrote in news:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01:


> are well ahead of schedule. But ultimately, being asked to beat one
> of the top 3 teams in Celtics franchise history while missing their
> second best player to injury, and then additionally being asked to do


Wow, would you really call Bynum your 2nd best player? I don't see how he
is as good as Gasol by any means, and until Odom's largely disappointing
finals I would have called him the Laker's 3rd best player. Bynum is
awfully good for his age and is a pretty solid player right now, and he
certainly can still become a great player and the Lakers' 2nd best player
if he continues to develop...but in 2008 I still see a 10/10 guy who got
DOMINATED the two times he faced Kendrick Perkins in the regular season.


--
"Call me Big Normy when you back that azz up." - Norm
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Gary Collard

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Since: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 897



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:45 pm
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I neglected to congratulate Celts fans who haven't passed 50 for getting
even with the Lakers in the head to head, meant to do so.

And for you AARP folks congrats for extending your H2H lead.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"A wheelchair? Seriously? ... We’ve dinged our knee up harder on
our computer desk." -- The Big Lead on Paul Pierce
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Gary Collard

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Since: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 897



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:46 pm
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Jay Michaels wrote:
> "Gary Collard" <dm DeleteThis @ddd.com> wrote in message
> news:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01...
>> I’ve been spending most of my free time the last two weeks in the hospital
>> (somebody close to me, serious but not life-altering or threatening,
>> thanks for asking) and thus missed what was doubtless tons of fun here.
>>
>> Just wanted to take a minute to say congratulations to the Celts and their
>> fans for getting to 17 and keeping us stuck on 15.
>
> You meant to say stuck on 14, right?

I was talking world championships. They won one when the NBA's precursor
was a minor league.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard DeleteThis @yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"A wheelchair? Seriously? ... We’ve dinged our knee up harder on
our computer desk." -- The Big Lead on Paul Pierce
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Gary Collard

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Since: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 897



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:51 pm
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Bryant Durrell wrote:
> In article <588c1ce7-ef6c-4978-aebc-bb04ff42c6f0.RemoveThis@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> mozark <swooning.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This part I don't get. This Celtics club, IMHO, would not have beaten
>> ANY of the Bird teams from the 80s. Especially not the 81 or 86 teams.
>> Neither, going back, would they have been on par with the Cowens/
>> Havlicek champions, and certainly not the great Russell teams of the
>> 60s. (Of course, judged in their own context. If we could yank those
>> players ahead 40 years, I think it's very possible those dudes would
>> be CBA-level. I mean, Bailey Howell??)
>
> I think they'd beat the 70s teams. They wouldn't beat '86.

'86 and whatever is the best of the 60's teams (is it '65?) are the ones I
had in mind.

A double digit margin of victory over 82 games is historic, people really
underrate how tough that is and thus how great this team was. Three coin
flips all coming up tails in the Atlanta series seem to have clouded the
issue much more than it should have.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard.RemoveThis@yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"A wheelchair? Seriously? ... We’ve dinged our knee up harder on
our computer desk." -- The Big Lead on Paul Pierce
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Gary Collard

External


Since: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 897



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:53 pm
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Bryant Durrell wrote:
> Crossing my fingers for three years of window. It gets sticky after that.
> A fair amount of money comes off the books in 2010 thanks to Allen and
> Scal. Rondo will need to be resigned, however. Ask me again next year
> after we find out if Rondo takes another quantum leap upwards.

He's never going to be a great offensive player, but I see no reason why he
should not be a top 10 PG for a decade or so to come. With some All
Defense selections, which he deserved first team this year.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard RemoveThis @yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"A wheelchair? Seriously? ... We’ve dinged our knee up harder on
our computer desk." -- The Big Lead on Paul Pierce
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Gary Collard

External


Since: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 897



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:03 pm
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big normy wrote:
> Gary Collard <dm.DeleteThis@ddd.com> wrote in news:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01:
>
>
>> are well ahead of schedule. But ultimately, being asked to beat one
>> of the top 3 teams in Celtics franchise history while missing their
>> second best player to injury, and then additionally being asked to do
>
>
> Wow, would you really call Bynum your 2nd best player?

He was a top 15-20 player in the league when he went down and getting
better rapidly.

> I don't see how he
> is as good as Gasol by any means, and until Odom's largely disappointing
> finals I would have called him the Laker's 3rd best player. Bynum is
> awfully good for his age and is a pretty solid player right now, and he
> certainly can still become a great player and the Lakers' 2nd best player
> if he continues to develop...but in 2008 I still see a 10/10 guy who got
> DOMINATED the two times he faced Kendrick Perkins in the regular season.

He was better than 10 and 10 even for the whole season (13+ and 10+ on 64%
shooting in 28+ minutes), but the key is how he got there - 18.8 and 12.8
in January before the injury, with his minutes picking up.

--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard.DeleteThis@yahoo.com
http://sarcastipundit.blogspot.com/

"A wheelchair? Seriously? ... We’ve dinged our knee up harder on
our computer desk." -- The Big Lead on Paul Pierce
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Beiselbub©

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Since: May 26, 2008
Posts: 13



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:06 pm
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On Jun 24, 8:13 am, "Skeptic" <bcs0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> "VicXnews" <n... DeleteThis @news.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2n_7k.1158$oY2.451@newsfe21.lga...
>
> > Gary Collard <d... DeleteThis @ddd.com> wrote innews:Md_7k.1912$cv5.1720@trnddc01:
>
> >> KG as the woman beater
>
> > first I've heard of this...
> > hope all is well with you and yours now...
>
> Gasol was his woman.


Classic.
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