Comparing draft of basketball and football

Daniel Seriff <microtonal RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote in message news:<0001HW.BCB4696F026D3DCCF02845B0 RemoveThis @news-server.austin.rr.com>...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:11:11 -0500, Harry Everhart wrote
> (in message <harry-EC7956.20111127042004 RemoveThis @comcast.ash.giganews.com>):
>
> > Everyone is dancing around my original question - but not answering it.
> >
> > Here it is again - why can a kid play in the NBA at 18 - but not in the
> > NFL at 18?
>
> Because the NFL has decided that it doesn't want 18 year olds to play in the
> NFL. Either you're trying to make this *way* too complex, or you're simply
> ignoring all the perfectly valid reasons that have already been provided you.
>
> Given the first sentence of your post just above, I'm guessing it's the
> latter.
>
> > Just tell me what law allows the NFL to restrict kids - but the not NBA.
>
> This question misses the whole point. By a mile, I might add.


The NFL's stance is that an 18 year old kid out of high school is
simply not physically ready for the pure speed and brutal play of the
NFL, not to mention the long schedule. They want the kids to use
college as a developmental step before jumping to the NFL, hence the
rule.
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

Donnie Barnes wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr, Daniel Seriff wrote:
>
>>>I understand it is a union thing - but - How can a union negotiate away
>>>the rights of a kid in college that is not a member of their union?
>>
>>It has nothing to do with the union. It has to do with the faulty assumption
>>that there is such a thing as the "right to play in the NFL".
>>
>>I fail to see why this is even an argument. The NFL, like any other business
>>in the country, is under absolutely no legal or moral obligation to admit
>>anyone that it feels is unsuited for admittance.
>
>
> Agreed! The sooner the NBA realizes that they are just watering down their
> own product by allowing high schoolers and one year wonders to join their
> ranks, the sooner they'll start singing the same tune.

Hey to the rookie of the year, no college experience.
Hey to the runner up, one year of college experience.

Clearly, the NBA's product is getting crushed by
the presence of unseasoned talent, none of whom are
able to play at the level of the college veterans.

- Jason Bell
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

In article <slrnc8tm68.dhj.djbSPAMSUCKS DeleteThis @localhost.localdomain>,
Donnie Barnes <djbSPAMSUCKS DeleteThis @donniebarnes.com> wrote:

> They *thought*
> they had it fixed with the salary restrictions on rookies, but with the
> financial health of the NBA getting worse and worse, they are getting just
> as pissed off about getting stuck with Kwame Brown for three years at a few
> mill a year as they are with whatever Sam Bowie's poor team got stuck with
> way back when.

Well, if they are getting pissed off about getting stuck with Kwame
Brown, then DON'T DRAFT KWAME BROWN. If not for Kwame Brown, they'd
be pissed about getting stuck with, say, someone else.

While I agree the NBA etc. can restrict admittance to whomever they
want, I find this sort of wailing and gnashing of teeth to be silly --
"Save me from myself" each owner says. Restricting the draft to kids
three years out of college won't save the NBA. I also find it
demeaning when there clearly are people who wouldn't be eligible under
new requirements who did just fine in the NBA as rookies -- LeBron
James and Carmello Anthony for a start.

- geoff
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

"Pauli G" wrote...
> Daniel Seriff wrote...
> > Harry Everhart wrote:
> >
> > > Everyone is dancing around my original question - but not answering it.
> > >
> > > Here it is again - why can a kid play in the NBA at 18 - but not in the
> > > NFL at 18?
> >
> > Because the NFL has decided that it doesn't want 18 year olds to play in the
> > NFL. Either you're trying to make this *way* too complex, or you're simply
> > ignoring all the perfectly valid reasons that have already been provided
you.
> >
> > Given the first sentence of your post just above, I'm guessing it's the
> > latter.
> >
> > > Just tell me what law allows the NFL to restrict kids - but the not NBA.
> >
> > This question misses the whole point. By a mile, I might add.
>
>
> The NFL's stance is that an 18 year old kid out of high school is
> simply not physically ready for the pure speed and brutal play of the
> NFL, not to mention the long schedule. They want the kids to use
> college as a developmental step before jumping to the NFL, hence the
> rule.

does anyone else besides me think that it's still rooted in money? i'm not
saying that there is or isn't a "not physically ready" aspect to it or a
hardship case aspect to it that can or can't be legally challenged or a "it's my
God-given, inalienable-right-to-do-what-i-want" aspect to it, but c'mon.

i don't know the tv ratings for each sport and i don't know the total revenues
for each sport and i don't know the attendance figures for each sport...

- but -

i know that they general perception is that the nfl is relatively healthy from a
business model perspective and the nba is not. do you think the nba is looking
for new talent to generate interest (i.e. additional revenues) for it's own
sense of self-preservation? of course they are. why else would they have just
made the first round of the playoffs best-of-seven when the previous
best-of-five gave it more of a win-or-go-home feel? it's all about the
benjamins.

all of you ask astute questions and make great arguments to justify your
positions. but let's face it, the nba is desperate for ways to generate revenue
and the nfl is not. consequently, they don't *need* to look at guys willing and
wanting to skip college. and why do these guys want to skip college anyway?
college is part of the american dream, right? it has the allure of the "full
college experience" that donny has already spoke of, right?

it's gotta be the money.
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

I just do not know how in a legal sense one monopoly can stop an 18 year
old from playing based on age and the other one can't or won't.

Maybe the question is - can the NBL legally stop kids 18 years old from
playing.

Personally - I feel that if a person has the skills required at age 18 -
and someone wants to pay him - he should be able to play. It reminds me
too much of not allowing brown people to play baseball 50 years ago even
though they were highly skilled.

Someone on here compared it to our constitution setting certain ages to
be Senators etc. That is my point - it is written in constitutional law
setting those ages. There is no constitutional law saying people must be
21 to play in the NFL - a monopoly.

A strict libertarian might say also that the college draft is illegal.
Every kid out of college should be a free agent to play for who he wants
for whatever he can get. The draft is for the benefit of the owners -
not the players. It prevents a free market.

As someone else said - it all boils down to money.

I hope the courts rule that kids 18 - can play in the NFL.

I feel that people on the newsgroup like the draft and age rule -
because it protects their college team.

Being a Duke fan - being selfish - I wish Deng and the others would stay
on the team for 4 years to win games to make me feel good.

Being a realist - the age rule does not protect the players - it takes
choices away from the players - usually when you remove choice - you are
oppressing someone - and oppression is seldom good.

The NBA age rule makes more sense to me that the NFL age rule.

Now - after all that - I HATE the Yankees because all they do is wave
money around and buy the best baseball players :-)
Harry
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

In article <slrnc8vg00.eep.djbSPAMSUCKS.DeleteThis@localhost.localdomain>,
Donnie Barnes <djbSPAMSUCKS.DeleteThis@donniebarnes.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr, Geoffrey F. Green wrote:
> > Well, if they are getting pissed off about getting stuck with Kwame
> > Brown, then DON'T DRAFT KWAME BROWN. If not for Kwame Brown, they'd
> > be pissed about getting stuck with, say, someone else.
>
> Easier said than done.
>
> > While I agree the NBA etc. can restrict admittance to whomever they
> > want, I find this sort of wailing and gnashing of teeth to be silly --
> > "Save me from myself" each owner says.
>
> I don't know it's quite that simple. I think it's simply a matter of fact
> that it is that much harder to judge the talent level when looking at kids
> in high school. I doubt you had a lot of other NBA GMs sitting around
> laughing at the Kwame Brown draft pick when it happened.

Well, there may be a few more high school busts, but there are
certainly enough college busts. What I find interesting is the sheer
number of second-round picks who don't make it to the league. These
guys would become first round picks. Imagine the number of flops
you'd have then.

And, as to the difficulty of judging the ability of high school kids
versus college kids -- Joe Forte, William Avery, and Trajan Langdon
say hi. Of course, a counterpoint is that Chris Burgess might have
been a first-round draft pick in 1997.

While you can make the case that baseball has enough serious problems
of its own, it's done quite well without any age restrictions
whatsoever. Maybe it's time for the NBA to turn the NBDL into
something that might actually help resolve the problem of kids turning
pro too young without foisting more kids who have absolutely no
interest in going to college -- that means you Tyson Chandler -- onto
the collegiate ranks.

> > Restricting the draft to kids
> > three years out of college won't save the NBA.
>
> Nope, but it is a start.

The problems with the NBA, from my limited perspective, are too much
defensive intensity (how much things have changed) and not enough foul
calls, as well as stunning ineptitude on the offensive end in part
because of players who have a lack of fundamentals. I don't see how
keeping high schoolers out will necessarily help matters. If they
don't have the fundamentals by end of high school, they're not
necessarily going to learn them any better in college than they would
on a pro team. There are exceptions, of course, particularly if a
kid's going someplace like Duke or Carolina, but if they're going to
Podunk Community College in Backwaterville, KY, I'm less certain...

> > I also find it
> > demeaning when there clearly are people who wouldn't be eligible under
> > new requirements who did just fine in the NBA as rookies -- LeBron
> > James and Carmello Anthony for a start.
>
> They are the most annoying part of this, actually. You end up with
> superstars and busts and it's damned hard to tell them apart at draft time.
> That's part of what this would fix.

Remember that someone thought college players Marcus Fizer, Mateen
Cleaves, and Courtney Alexander would be quality NBA players. I'm not
convinced that limiting the draft would fix that.

> I don't see why *you* would find this "demeaning", however. Did you enter
> last year's draft and you're pissed that LeBron got picked first instead of
> you?

It's because I feel empathy. If you don't understand, it's not my
fault you're a closedhearted man, unable to discern the feelings of
those about you.

- geoff
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

"Geoffrey F. Green" <geoff-usenet2.TakeThisOut@stuebegreen.com> wrote in message
news:geoff-usenet2-8A1E47.07121428042004@reader3.news.rcn.net...
> In article <slrnc8tm68.dhj.djbSPAMSUCKS.TakeThisOut@localhost.localdomain>,
> Donnie Barnes <djbSPAMSUCKS.TakeThisOut@donniebarnes.com> wrote:
>
> > They *thought*
> > they had it fixed with the salary restrictions on rookies, but with the
> > financial health of the NBA getting worse and worse, they are getting just
> > as pissed off about getting stuck with Kwame Brown for three years at a few
> > mill a year as they are with whatever Sam Bowie's poor team got stuck with
> > way back when.
>
> Well, if they are getting pissed off about getting stuck with Kwame
> Brown, then DON'T DRAFT KWAME BROWN. If not for Kwame Brown, they'd
> be pissed about getting stuck with, say, someone else.

Well said, and Whinesky and other trolls would argue
to exclude Duke players from the draft!

> While I agree the NBA etc. can restrict admittance to whomever they
> want, I find this sort of wailing and gnashing of teeth to be silly --
> "Save me from myself" each owner says. Restricting the draft to kids
> three years out of college won't save the NBA. I also find it
> demeaning when there clearly are people who wouldn't be eligible under
> new requirements who did just fine in the NBA as rookies -- LeBron
> James and Carmello Anthony for a start.

I agree with the "Save me from myself" mentality, not that
there is anything wrong with that (catastrophic insurance
is a *good* idea). I think the best solution would be to
let kids try one year in the NBA and structure the contract
accordingly. Then let them have some NCAA elibiability
if they flop liek PANCAKE! Good for kids, good for
NBA, good for NCAA.

The only drawback is that stupid insistance on "Money
Virgins" at the NCAA level. Given the way the NCAA
acts like a pimp, this amounts to 1000% of the USRDA
for irony.

--Tedward
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

"mc" <mellowcat.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<ffOjc.15507$7a5.15050@bignews6.bellsouth.net>...
> "Pauli G" wrote...
> > Daniel Seriff wrote...
> > > Harry Everhart wrote:
> > >
> > > > Everyone is dancing around my original question - but not answering it.
> > > >
> > > > Here it is again - why can a kid play in the NBA at 18 - but not in the
> > > > NFL at 18?
> > >
> > > Because the NFL has decided that it doesn't want 18 year olds to play in the
> > > NFL. Either you're trying to make this *way* too complex, or you're simply
> > > ignoring all the perfectly valid reasons that have already been provided
> you.
> > >
> > > Given the first sentence of your post just above, I'm guessing it's the
> > > latter.
> > >
> > > > Just tell me what law allows the NFL to restrict kids - but the not NBA.
> > >
> > > This question misses the whole point. By a mile, I might add.
> >
> >
> > The NFL's stance is that an 18 year old kid out of high school is
> > simply not physically ready for the pure speed and brutal play of the
> > NFL, not to mention the long schedule. They want the kids to use
> > college as a developmental step before jumping to the NFL, hence the
> > rule.
>
> does anyone else besides me think that it's still rooted in money? i'm not
> saying that there is or isn't a "not physically ready" aspect to it or a
> hardship case aspect to it that can or can't be legally challenged or a "it's my
> God-given, inalienable-right-to-do-what-i-want" aspect to it, but c'mon.
>
> i don't know the tv ratings for each sport and i don't know the total revenues
> for each sport and i don't know the attendance figures for each sport...
>
> - but -
>
> i know that they general perception is that the nfl is relatively healthy from a
> business model perspective and the nba is not. do you think the nba is looking
> for new talent to generate interest (i.e. additional revenues) for it's own
> sense of self-preservation? of course they are. why else would they have just
> made the first round of the playoffs best-of-seven when the previous
> best-of-five gave it more of a win-or-go-home feel? it's all about the
> benjamins.
>
> all of you ask astute questions and make great arguments to justify your
> positions. but let's face it, the nba is desperate for ways to generate revenue
> and the nfl is not. consequently, they don't *need* to look at guys willing and
> wanting to skip college. and why do these guys want to skip college anyway?
> college is part of the american dream, right? it has the allure of the "full
> college experience" that donny has already spoke of, right?
>
> it's gotta be the money.


I'm sure that money is somehow involved, but I do believe that there
is a legitimate physical aspect to it. The coach at my college was a
coordinator with the Jacksonville Jags, and did an interview with the
local paper about kids jumping to the NFL. His take was that college
is valuable not only for game experience, but especially for the
weight training and general physical development. Another thing he
kept hammering on was how fast the NFL game is, and that the speed is
an adjustment even for kids coming out of a 4-year program, never mind
out of high school.
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

Daniel Seriff <microtonal.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<0001HW.BCB41BE0025B101BF02845B0.DeleteThis@news-server.austin.rr.com>...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:02:44 -0500, Harry Everhart wrote
> (in message <harry-B24DB3.13024427042004.DeleteThis@comcast.ash.giganews.com>):
>
> > In article <geoff-usenet2-D60CB1.12533527042004.DeleteThis@reader3.news.rcn.net>,
> > "Geoffrey F. Green" <geoff-usenet2.DeleteThis@stuebegreen.com> wrote:
> >> The NFL and its union, through their collective bargaining agreement,
> >> forbid players to enter the league until three years after their high
> >> school class has graduated.
> >>
> >> The NBA and its union have no such provision, though they are
> >> discussing it.
> >
> > Thanks Geoff -
> > I understand it is a union thing - but - How can a union negotiate away
> > the rights of a kid in college that is not a member of their union?
>
> It has nothing to do with the union. It has to do with the faulty assumption
> that there is such a thing as the "right to play in the NFL".
>
> I fail to see why this is even an argument. The NFL, like any other business
> in the country, is under absolutely no legal or moral obligation to admit
> anyone that it feels is unsuited for admittance.

Any other business in the country is unable to discriminate against
potential employees based on age...
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

In article <slrnc8vpji.ejn.djbSPAMSUCKS.TakeThisOut@localhost.localdomain>,
Donnie Barnes <djbSPAMSUCKS.TakeThisOut@donniebarnes.com> wrote:

> >> I don't see why *you* would find this "demeaning", however. Did you enter
> >> last year's draft and you're pissed that LeBron got picked first instead of
> >> you?
> >
> > It's because I feel empathy. If you don't understand, it's not my
> > fault you're a closedhearted man, unable to discern the feelings of
> > those about you.
>
> Sorry, the above was simply a bad attempt at a joke. I'm not sure where I
> was even going. Ignore the man behind the curtain...

Ummmm, so was I. Well, now I'm not. See, you really can't discern
the feelings of others about you, in this case, my feelings of humor
towards you.

- geoff
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

Jason Bell <Jason_Bell RemoveThis @mail.com> hypothesized the following:

:> Agreed! The sooner the NBA realizes that they are just watering down their
:> own product by allowing high schoolers and one year wonders to join their
:> ranks, the sooner they'll start singing the same tune.
:
: Hey to the rookie of the year, no college experience.
: Hey to the runner up, one year of college experience.

hey to Kwame Brown. hey to a whole bunch of other high school busts.
i'll see your two and raise you a whole bunch more. are you going to
call with your Moses Malone?

: Clearly, the NBA's product is getting crushed by
: the presence of unseasoned talent, none of whom are
: able to play at the level of the college veterans.

for every LeBron and Carmelo you find, you'll have to bring up a bunch
of Kwame Browns. even the guys who end up being good, KG, Kobe, etc.,
didn't explode into the NBA the way LeBron and 'Melo did. the signal to
noise ratio from high school is still probably a lot weaker than that
from college, even if you do include LeBron and 'Melo.




-joseph
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

joseph jeong <joseph.DeleteThis@thisisvalid.polter.net> wrote in message news:<slrnc8vhbu.r3n.joseph.DeleteThis@ae-39-44.ae.gatech.edu>...
> Jason Bell <Jason_Bell.DeleteThis@mail.com> hypothesized the following:
>
> :> Agreed! The sooner the NBA realizes that they are just watering down their
> :> own product by allowing high schoolers and one year wonders to join their
> :> ranks, the sooner they'll start singing the same tune.
> :
> : Hey to the rookie of the year, no college experience.
> : Hey to the runner up, one year of college experience.
>
> hey to Kwame Brown. hey to a whole bunch of other high school busts.
> i'll see your two and raise you a whole bunch more. are you going to
> call with your Moses Malone?
>
> : Clearly, the NBA's product is getting crushed by
> : the presence of unseasoned talent, none of whom are
> : able to play at the level of the college veterans.
>
> for every LeBron and Carmelo you find, you'll have to bring up a bunch
> of Kwame Browns. even the guys who end up being good, KG, Kobe, etc.,
> didn't explode into the NBA the way LeBron and 'Melo did. the signal to
> noise ratio from high school is still probably a lot weaker than that
> from college, even if you do include LeBron and 'Melo.
>

I never understood this argument. Most players drafted out of *any*
population (HSers, Euros, College All-Stars, etc.) never develop into
NBA stars.

Yes, for every KG there are lots of KBs, but for every Tim Duncan
there are lots of Ed O'Bannons, and for every Pau Gasol there are lots
of Nikoloz Tskitishvilis. Just because it's hard for a HSer to jump
the NBA shouldn't mean that HSers shouldn't be allowed into the
league. It's extremely difficult for *anyone* to become an NBA star.
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football 

In article <slrnc8vrv2.ekk.djbSPAMSUCKS.TakeThisOut@localhost.localdomain>,
Donnie Barnes <djbSPAMSUCKS.TakeThisOut@donniebarnes.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr, Geoffrey F. Green wrote:
> >> Sorry, the above was simply a bad attempt at a joke. I'm not sure where I
> >> was even going. Ignore the man behind the curtain...
> >
> > Ummmm, so was I. Well, now I'm not. See, you really can't discern
> > the feelings of others about you, in this case, my feelings of humor
> > towards you.
>
> Rule 1: Never post before you've had your morning caffeine.

10:30 am and you hadn't had your morning caffeine? You animal you.

- geoff
 >> Stay informed about: Comparing draft of basketball and football