8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers

"Ken Cheng" <kencheng.TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ee892ffa-5ee2-40b0-bb7b-6fa5f87fbc8f@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On May 31, 3:48 pm, "Skeptic" <bcs0....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Ron" <BigELil....TakeThisOut@msn.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cf6b471e-0f38-4aa4-adae-2885ffe34fd3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 4:43 pm, "Skeptic" <bcs0....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "Ken Cheng" <kench....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:300ed925-f44d-42fd-99a2-4464d80352f6@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >> I think it's not so much the experts' great confidence in the Lakers
> >> as it is their *loss* of confidence in the Celtics. Those 7-game
> >> series against the Hawks and the Cavs cost the Celtics the aura of
> >> invincibility that they had coming into the playoffs, and even their
> >> victory in 6 over the Pistons hasn't fully brought it back.
>
> >> Had these polls been done at the beginning of the playoffs, the
> >> Celtics would have been the pick of all eight experts.
>
> >> ***************************
>
> >> These same "experts" all had the Hawks being swept.
>
> > So what does that tell ya about the C's?
>
> That they've defied the "experts'?- Hide quoted text -

Perhaps, but not in a way that's been helpful to themselves.


******************

Not the point. The point is, the experts' opinions are generally devoid of
value.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

Skeptic wrote:
> Not the point. The point is, the experts' opinions are generally devoid of
> value.

Expert system (pun intended):

1. Decide on an outcome by any means you choose: best record, best
point differential, pace of play, personal preference, phase of
moon, tea leaves, armpit hair thrown into wind, etc.

2. Collect a bunch of observations about both teams.

3. Divide observations into two groups: those that support your
conclusion, and those that don't.

4. Incinerate latter group.

5. Write column.

--
Brian Tung <brian.DeleteThis@aero.org>
NOTE: Below addresses changing soon...
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
My posts do not represent the views of either Aerospace of USC/ISI.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

"Old_Golden_Throat" <chick_hearn_3338.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2e458ad-72d4-43f1-90c8-8a214096db84@g16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>I love the use of hyperbole. Explain to me how any two-guard actually
> "dominates" the game on defense. Who was he guarding? Hornacek?
> Majerle? Voshon Lenard? Scary guys for sure. Oh John Starks, he's
> impossible to stop.
>
> Everyone should know it's interior defense that matters most. The
> guys who control the paint dominate on defense.
>
> Many times I see players (yes Jordan is in this boat) making
> undeserved all-defense teams, mostly because of reputation and being
> popular.

Great defenders can be found at any position. Jordan was one and Pippen was
another. The two of them could put the clamp down on the oppposition in a
big way. It's one of the major reasons they won 6 of 6 NBA finals.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

>  He is
> not in the same universe as MJ in that regard. Jordan could dominate the
> game on both ends of the court.  

You can't compare Kobe to MJ because the RULES are different. MJ
never faced zone defenses where one guy could play MJ up close and
another just guard the paint by standing right outside the key waiting
for MJ to beat the up close defender.

Put the man-to-man rules back the way they were and Kobe would be just
as hard to guard as MJ was.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

Skeptic wrote:

> I don't hate Kobe. He's a damned good player and future hall of famer. I
> don't care how many all defensive teams he has been or will be on. He is
> not in the same universe as MJ in that regard. Jordan could dominate the
> game on both ends of the court. Kobe can't.

:) He can't? He DOES.


> Jordan's Bulls, while we're at
> it, were an amazing defensive squad with the likes of Pippen, Jordan and
> Rodman. The best defensive player on LA is Fisher.

LOL. Yeah, you really don't know the Lakers very well.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

Great players can be found at any position too. Some are just more
important than others, bottom line.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

I would probably bet on the Celtics too.

There's nothing wrong with picking the Lakers, but I doubt I would
like the reasoning from some of these analysts. I'm more interested
in how they arrived to their conclusions, either way, than the actual
conclusion itself. Just saying Lakers in 6 doesn't mean all that
much.

If it's an east vs. west thing, that's very flawed. In fact, it's
completely irrelevant to me. Other than their poor showing vs. the
Hawks, everything else has been pretty much as expected. Why should
anyone have expected Boston to roll through Cleveland in 4 or 5? Do
people really think the Lakers would have done so? And vs. Detroit,
Boston pretty much took care of business from my point of view. The
cream of the east was, or is, just as good as the cream of the west.
Overall, the west is the better conference. But at the top, it's
closer than people think.

I also think these analysts made their choices based on the Lakers
have the best player, that he will be unstoppable especially in crunch
time. But I don't feel the C's should fear Kobe more or less than the
Lakers fear Pierce. It probably won't happen, but in case it does,
what if Kobe Bryant goes into a shooting slump? He's been on fire so
far, no question. 52% I think, which is fantastic. If it drops to
40% over a three game stretch, which is not impossible, that's big
trouble. Having one hot game where he goes off for 50 pts will not be
able to make for that. I'm not saying this will happen, but shooting
comes and goes.

The Lakers need Gasol to really step up, the role players & bench
(Radmanovic, Vujacic, Walton, etc) need to continue doing their
unheralded things, 5-8 here, another 4-9 there, etc. They also need
to keep the rebounding difference as small as possible. They don't
necessarily have to win this battle, but keep it within 5 rebounds or
so will be critical.

Perhaps an overlooked key for Boston is their backup PG play behind
Rondo. If House and/or Cassell produce anything in their limited
minutes, that could do enough damage to make a difference. If they
don't, and instead brick & commit turnovers, that'd be enough to swing
things in the Lakers' favor.

In general, the Lakers need to push the tempo whenever they can - use
their speed, youth, and athleticism. Not only for easy layups, but
getting open looks in transition for Fisher and Vujacic. If they get
stuck in halfcourt, let's say they'd rather limit the physical battles
as much as possible. Kobe Bryant needs to win the FT attempts war vs.
Pierce. Pierce cannot be averaging 10-12 FTs to Kobe's 4-5.

Whichever team gets to 3-2 wins. Of course it's more likely for
Boston to comeback from that deficit. Ideally for the Lakers, that
means getting a split. But even if they go down 0-2, if they sweep
the games in L.A. (unlikely in any event) afterwards to reach 3-2,
they'll probably win the series because I don't see it going WWLLLWW
if it's Boston in 7.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

On Jun 1, 6:20 am, "Skeptic" <bcs0... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Miguel MB" <P... DeleteThis @yaho.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Pyn0k.294$q97.120@newsfe02.lga...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Skeptic wrote:
>
> >> "Miguel MB" <P... DeleteThis @yaho.com> wrote in message
> >>news:Iej0k.164$%54.54@newsfe06.lga...
>
> >>>Skeptic wrote:
>
> >>>>MJ comparisons are old and dead. The reason? He never lived up to them
> >>>>and never will. Jordan was an offensive juggernaut, moreso than Kobe.
>
> >>>What's your definition of "offensive juggernaut"? I take it the ability
> >>>to drop 55 in a half, 30-point quarters, go on 3-point sprees, outscore
> >>>the opponent single-handedly, and score in about a hundred different ways
> >>>have nothing to do with it?
>
> >> Oh, let' see....
>
> >> Out of Kobe's 12 seasons, he has averaged more than Jordan's CAREER
> >> AVERAGE only twice. How's that for starters? But hey, any time you want
> >> to look over the actual stats for yourself, they're readily available on
> >> NBA.com.
>
> > So you're one of those folks who likes to ignore what the information is
> > really telling you, eh? OK.
>
> > I mean, seriously, he entered the league as a rookie on a team that was
> > already contending. Or didn't you know that?
>
> Oh my. Ok, what season ending injury did Kobe have to recover from?
>
> > He was playing with a dominant big man, with whom if Jordan had played
> > with, Michael wouldn't have been scoring a much as the second option,
> > either. Or didn't you know that?
>
> So you think playing with the most dominant big man in the game HINDERED his
> game? Go ask Wade how that's not the case.
>
> > You do understand that a dominant big man is going to command the shots no
> > matter who he's playing with, don't you?
>
> Not with Jordan he wouldn't have.
>
> > Read up on the game a little more. You'll get it.
>
> LOL, nerds like you would say something like that. The closest you've
> probably ever been to a real basketball game is driving by your local
> outdoor court.... "Read up on the game"!!! LOL, priceless.

Aren't you the same Bathroom Stall that said that Ray Mercer was
better than Kobe? LOL.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

On Jun 1, 9:18 am, "Skeptic" <bcs0... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Miguel MB" <P... RemoveThis @yaho.com> wrote in message
>
> news:itn0k.293$q97.109@newsfe02.lga...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ken Cheng wrote:
>
> >> On May 31, 2:24 pm, Ron <bigelil... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>What yr did they move the 3 pt line to a shorter distance?- Hide quoted
> >>>text -
>
> >>>- Show quoted text -
>
> >> I think it was 1994-1995. I remember that Cedric Ceballos suddenly
> >> fancied himself a great 3-point shooter, much to Laker fans'
> >> exasperation at times.
>
> >> I think Nick Van Exel also hit a ton of threes during that year or two
> >> when the shorter line was in effect. Not that Nick didn't have *real*
> >> 3-point range, but the shorter line almost certainly padded his career
> >> stats on threes made.
>
> >http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nba/nbahistory.htm
>
> > 1994-95 NBA shortens their three-point line to a uniform 22 feet from the
> > basket
>
> > 1997-98 The NBA three-point line is lengthened to its original distance of
> > 23 feet, 9 inches (except in the corners, where the distance remains 22
> > feet).
>
> I recall the classic comment from Bird on this - to paraphrase - he had been
> saying for years they needed to move the 3 point line, but he meant move it
> farther away, not closer.

Had to love him leaving his warm-up jacket on during the 3 pt
competitions.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

On May 31, 3:40 pm, "Skeptic" <bcs0... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Jabba" <jabbathechand... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9fcc39f5-477e-417b-b33d-cb21941a9297@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 1:41 pm, "Skeptic" <bcs0... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "Ron" <BigELil... RemoveThis @msn.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:0095c5a9-ffba-4755-810c-aa7c0e023ae2@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On May 31, 3:35 pm, "Skeptic" <bcs0... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> "Don Tiberone" <s_knig... RemoveThis @my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:38417e66-9536-4ba5-a7b3-4c620ada421b@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com....
>
> >> >> > I'm not sure if that's a good or bad sign.
>
> >> >> >http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/series?series=lalbos
>
> >> >> Really?  Wow.  8 out of 8 is VERY surprising.  Recognizing my being
> >> >> fan
> >> >> may
> >> >> obscure my view, at the ver worse I could see them splitting 4-4 or
> >> >> 5-3
> >> >> in
> >> >> either direction.  If I were betting on the series (and would thus be
> >> >> very
> >> >> objective), I'd bet on the Celtics.  If I had to pick how many games,
> >> >> I'd
> >> >> say in 6 games.  They'll win the first 2.  Take one in LA.  Win the
> >> >> first
> >> >> game back home.
>
> >> > 1 word why the Lakers win - Kobe
>
> >> > I don't care for the guy, but he is the MJ of today.
>
> >> MJ comparisons are old and dead.  The reason?  He never lived up to them
> >> and
> >> never will.  Jordan was an offensive juggernaut, moreso than Kobe.  But
> >> let's say, for the sake of argument, that their offensive abilities are
> >> close to equal.  That leaves 1/2 of the game unaccounted for and the
> >> difference between being defended by Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant is a
> >> vast as the ocean is deep.  The media so badly wants there to be another
> >> Jordan that they have tried to create one ever since Kobe entered the
> >> league.  But it takes more than media hype to actually achieve that.  It
> >> takes skills that Kobe doesn't possess.
>
> > I don't care for the comparison's between the two either, but this
> > knock on Kobe is off the mark. And your hatin' can't go unchecked.
> > Kobe has been NBA First Team defense 5 times, and second team twice.
> > Sure, I'd give the nod to sweaty ballhog jordon as the best defensive
> > 2-guard ever, but Kobe is in the neighborhood.
>
> I don't hate Kobe.  He's a damned good player and future hall of famer.  I
> don't care how many all defensive teams he has been or will be on.  He is
> not in the same universe as MJ in that regard. Jordan could dominate the
> game on both ends of the court.  Kobe can't.  Jordan's Bulls, while we're at
> it, were an amazing defensive squad with the likes of Pippen, Jordan and
> Rodman.  The best defensive player on LA is Fisher.  Since our weakest spots
> are C and PG... even if he does a great job on D, he'll effectively remove
> one of the weakest links on the team.  Hardly a major blow.

LAs best defensive player is Fisher? Dude, I'm the biggest DFish homer
in this group and I think that is a really stupid thing to say. You
obviously don't know anything about basketball, so I won't take you
too seriously.

According to people who actually know basketball, Kobe is the best
defender at his position in the league. We could go around and around
about your choice of metaphor (it's an ocean or a universe or a sheet
of paper) but Kobe's not nearly as far off as you seem to think.

Besides, the best defensive player on the Bulls was Pippen (and before
him, Charles Oakley). Imagine the kind of defense Kobe could play if
he believed his teammates would cover up any mistakes -- or, you can
just wait until next year with Bynum and Ariza coming back.

--
jabba
citizen of the empire
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

"KJ Collins" <jacqueszmonkey.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message news:bccc1d7d-4fc2-4a82-9600-0ad846f0266f@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On May 31, 5:17 pm, " bozak" <________boz....RemoveThis@gmail.com________>
wrote:

>
> how did you like me picking the lakers to knock of the shams 4-1???

Wasn't around for that. I just come in to go against whatever team you
pick in The Finals.

My particular fave was your trashing of the Heat 2 years ago.
**************************************************************************************

yeah it wasnt like that series appeared to be fixed to anyone...
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

"Old_Golden_Throat" <chick_hearn_3338.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2e458ad-72d4-43f1-90c8-8a214096db84@g16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>I love the use of hyperbole. Explain to me how any two-guard actually
> "dominates" the game on defense. Who was he guarding? Hornacek?
> Majerle? Voshon Lenard? Scary guys for sure. Oh John Starks, he's
> impossible to stop.

You forget many guys including Reggie Miller, Drexler, Dumars, Richmond,
Moncrief, Mullin etc. And Jordan often guarded high scoring point guards
like Isiah, Kevin Johnson, Payton etc . Pretty much Jordan could guard and
contain anyone from about 6ft tall to around 6"7 that wasn't a truly
freakish player like Charles Barkley, a PF, that could post him up.

>
> Everyone should know it's interior defense that matters most. The
> guys who control the paint dominate on defense.

Usually true but the Chicago Bulls won 6 titles and it could have been
7 or 8 if Jordan didn't walk away for a while without dominating the paint.
They
dominated the perimeter. The 80's Pistons were better defensively on the
perimeter then they were in
the post. SA's first two championships were clearly led by great post
defense but the last 2 have been somewhat balanced simply because Duncan
hasn't been teamed with another great defender on the interior. Shaq led
Lakers won with great offense and very good but probably somewhat balanced
defense.

And Shaq can still defend his man on the interior very well but he is
becoming a liability on defense more and more each year since he can't
defend the perimeter. Ben Wallace was a DPOY since he could defend a wide
range of area out well outside of the paint and recover. He wasn't DPOY
since he could defend the paint like Mutombo or even Hakeem. KG is a guy
that can defend anywhere including beyond the 3 point line but he doesn't
truly dominate the interior on D.

>
> Many times I see players (yes Jordan is in this boat) making
> undeserved all-defense teams, mostly because of reputation and being
> popular.

Jordan is actually a guy who should have made *more* all-defense teams.

I am not a fan of Jordan for many different reasons. I either bought 1 or 0
pairs of Nike shoes in my entire life and they certainly were not Air
Jordans. Nevertheless, I am objective enough to consider him at a minimum
the second most talented wing ever and by far the most accomplished wing.
(I think Lebron may very well have
more natural talent on offense due to his ridiculous size/strength/speed
combination to go with his athleticism but whether
he completely develops his shooting skills is TBD and
whether Lebron steps up in the clutch if he ever gets his version of Pippen
is TBD). Even though he isn't as good, Kobe is the best copy yet of Jordan
but Lebron really is a Magic/Jordan hybrid.

What year(s) did Jordan not deserve to
make an all defensive first or second team and who would you have had in
place of him? If anything, he got robbed of
making the all defensive team twice early in his career since it is largely
based upon reputation. I am a Celtic fan
but it's a *complete farce* that DJ was making first team all defense in
86-87
while Jordan didn't make the squad. Jordan as rookie deserved to make the
first team all defensive team and didn't even make the second team. By
85-86, Danny Ainge is on record saying that Jordan's
defense is better then his offense and that he has never seen a perimeter
defender like him. This is in a series in which Jordan scores 63 points in
that classic game. Ainge had never seen a player double off of him to
double the post and then recover so quickly. And it's not like Ainge wasn't
used to excellent defenders like Moncrief. Jordan didn't learn to play
defense in the nba, he was well schooled in the art of defense from his UNC
days.

Actually I agree with you that Jordan had a difficult time dominating "a
game" on defense since you are 100% correct that in the absence of another
dominant perimeter defender(Pippen) or a very good post defender, it's
pretty much impossible for a conventional wing to dominate an excellent
playoff caliber
team defensively. The other team just attacks other areas of the court
since a wing can't be everywhere at once.

But what Jordan did as a young player especially was dominate his opponent
and often provide stellar help defense during the entire game.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers 

Miguel MB wrote:
> Skeptic wrote:
>
>> I don't hate Kobe. He's a damned good player and future hall of
>> famer. I don't care how many all defensive teams he has been or
>> will be on. He is not in the same universe as MJ in that regard.
>> Jordan could dominate the game on both ends of the court. Kobe
>> can't.
>
> :) He can't? He DOES.
>
>
>> Jordan's Bulls, while we're at
>> it, were an amazing defensive squad with the likes of Pippen, Jordan
>> and Rodman. The best defensive player on LA is Fisher.
>
> LOL. Yeah, you really don't know the Lakers very well.

And I'm guessing *you* don't know the Celtics very well. I hope your Lakers
know our Celtics as well as you.
 >> Stay informed about: 8 out of 8 ESPN experts pick the Lakers