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Europa2846

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:15 am
Post subject: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks (more info?)

Now that the season is over, here's one fan's grades for the Bucks this
season:
GUARDS
Michael Redd (A-): A legitimate All-Star who for the third consecutive
season raised the level of his game substantially. Each season, Redd has been
given more to do and each season he has responded by performing at a higher
level. He slumped a bit in the second half of the season, due in large part to
the absence of T.J. Ford, but his future remains a bright one. Given his
unquestioned work ethic, there is every reason to believe he will learn from
the mistakes of this season and improve his game even more next season. He is
one of the key parts of the Bucks' foundation.
T.J. Ford (B-): The best rookie point guard in this year's draft, Ford was
on his way to a standout rookie season when a back injury shelved him for the
stretch run. The early prognosis is surgery will correct the problem and he'll
be back for the start of next season. That is vital because this team has a
chance to be special with Ford, who has superb passing skills, can create
offense against any defense and is a master in transition. The Bucks were one
of the four best teams in the East with Ford. Without him, they were a playoff
bottom feeder. Nothing more needs to be said about his importance to this team.
His glaring weakness is his perimeter shooting. He must improve in that area
and if he does there may not be any stopping him.
Damon Jones (C+): Cast aside by seemingly every other team in the league,
Jones found a home with the Bucks this season. He was much better running with
the second team and although he had some good games after Ford's injury, far
too often the weaknesses in his game (poor defense, suspect outside shooting)
were exposed as he played more minutes. An unrestricted free agent, the Bucks
should not consider re-signing him to be a huge priority.
Brevin Knight (D-): Picked up after Ford's injury and had a few good games
but was a big disappointment much of the time. Has great quickness, but doesn't
use it well either in transition or in the half-court game. He is a pesky
defender, but he can't shoot and is often a liability on offense. An
unrestricted free agent who the Bucks should let walk.
Erick Strickland (C): Rarely played for some strange reason, but was always
prepared and played hard when he got a chance. A true professional. Isn't a
true PG, but probably better suited to play that position in reserve than the
SG spot. A good guy for the Bucks to keep around.
FORWARDS
Desmond Mason (B+): A rising star whose all-around game is developing
nicely. Needs to become more consistent from the perimeter and the FT line, but
when he does (and it's a matter of "when," not "if") he's going to be a star. A
terrific defender and arguably the best game dunker in the NBA. Mason is
another key part of the Bucks' foundation and should be a starter at SF when
next season begins.
Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
Joe Smith (B+): Came over as part of the Sam Cassell trade and provided a
MAJOR upgrade at PF. Plays with tremendous heart and doesn't back down from
anyone on both ends of the court. Is the team's best rebounder and a solid
source of offense as well. Some people already seem convinced he won't be as
good next season as he was this season. To that I have just one word --
bulls**t.
Toni Kukoc (C-): Kukoc wasn't anywhere near as effective this season as he
was last year. Arguably the most intelligent player on the Bucks' roster, he
brings experience, savvy and offensive skills to the game, but simply cannot
play at a consistent level anymore. It appears age has caught up with him. An
unrestricted free agent, it's probably in the Bucks' best interests to use what
little free-agent money they have elsewhere this summer rather than re-signing
Kukoc.
Marcus Haislip (D-): Athletic, but has the look of a player who lacks
motivation. Maybe if Van Horn is traded Haislip could get a chance as a backup
to Mason at SF. Otherwise he'll probably spend next season riding the pine once
again.
CENTERS
Brian Skinner (B-): Should be playing PF, but played C out of necessity for
the Bucks and played hard the entire season. Wasn't as effective in the Detroit
series, but his work throughout the year provided a major upgrade at the
position. Has a solid lowpost game that could get even better with more work.
He can opt out of his contract for next season and the Bucks will be in serious
trouble if they can't keep him.
Dan Gadzuric (C-): Good luck finding anyone who plays with more energy than
Gadzuric, but for the second consecutive season he appeared to run out of gas
down the stretch, an indication his stamina needs work. He isn't much of an
offensive threat, but his shotblocking and rebounding skills are solid and
should've been used more in the Detroit series. If he can keep making strides
he'll deserve even more playing time next year.
Daniel Santiago (D): Had some decent moments during the season, but is
clearly a project. Needs to work on his upper-body strength so he won't get
pushed around so easily defensively. Has some offensive ability which makes him
a prime guy for the coaching staff to work with further to see if he can
develop into a legitimate backup.
COACHING/OVERALL (C+): The 41-41 record and first-round playoff exit merits
a C grade. But given how hard this team played for most of the season and how
impressively they embraced the team concept (a welcome departure from the
previous two seasons), another notch has been added to the overall grade.
Porter did a solid job as a rookie head coach, getting the team to buy into a
team-first philosophy that served them well throughout the season. He was
overmatched against Larry Brown in the playoffs, however, and needs to refine
his rotational system. There's also no excuse for him not getting his team
prepared to play in any one of the final three regular-season losses which
served to undercut a fine season. But if Porter is half the head coach he was a
player then he will learn from this season and be an even better head coach
next year. And with a tremendous young rotation of Redd, Mason and a healthy
Ford, the future is bright. Now it's up to GM Larry Harris to ensure that the
steps forward that were taken this season lead to the Bucks becoming an even
greater threat in the Eastern Conference next year.

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G. Smitts

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Since: May 08, 2004
Posts: 79



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:45 am
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks, others (more info?)

> Europa2846 wrote:
>
> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent,
> Van Horn had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling
> before a series of injuries pretty much rendered him useless for
> the final dozen games and the playoff series vs. Detroit. He
> couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but when he's healthy he
> is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's making
> far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry
> Harris' No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.

You score him a B- than say the #1 priority is to trade him... Odd.

As odd as you previous KVH comment that even "if Van Horn was
averaging a triple-double in this series" you'd still want him traded.

Couple of obvious points: If KVH really was a B- player he wouldn't
be the journeyman player he has become. And if he was capable of
averaging triple-doubles in a playoff series, he'd NEVER would have
been traded to the Bucks.

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cLIeNUX user

External


Since: Jun 04, 2004
Posts: 285



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:52 am
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks (more info?)

humbubba DeleteThis @smart.net
> Now that the season is over, here's one fan's grades for the Bucks this
>season:
> GUARDS
> Michael Redd (A-): A legitimate All-Star who for the third consecutive
>season raised the level of his game substantially. Each season, Redd has been
>given more to do and each season he has responded by performing at a higher
>level. He slumped a bit in the second half of the season, due in large part to
>the absence of T.J. Ford, but his future remains a bright one. Given his
>unquestioned work ethic, there is every reason to believe he will learn from
>the mistakes of this season and improve his game even more next season. He is
>one of the key parts of the Bucks' foundation.

Yup.

> T.J. Ford (B-): The best rookie point guard in this year's draft, Ford was
>on his way to a standout rookie season when a back injury shelved him for the
>stretch run. The early prognosis is surgery will correct the problem and he'll
>be back for the start of next season. That is vital because this team has a
>chance to be special with Ford, who has superb passing skills, can create
>offense against any defense and is a master in transition. The Bucks were one
>of the four best teams in the East with Ford. Without him, they were a playoff
>bottom feeder. Nothing more needs to be said about his importance to this team.
>His glaring weakness is his perimeter shooting. He must improve in that area
>and if he does there may not be any stopping him.

Yup. Unsung Rookie of the Year. I'd be damn sure I need surgery on my
spine. Go to a chiropractor first. "I told you so."

> Damon Jones (C+): Cast aside by seemingly every other team in the league,
>Jones found a home with the Bucks this season. He was much better running with
>the second team and although he had some good games after Ford's injury, far
>too often the weaknesses in his game (poor defense, suspect outside shooting)
>were exposed as he played more minutes. An unrestricted free agent, the Bucks
>should not consider re-signing him to be a huge priority.

Yup.

> Brevin Knight (D-): Picked up after Ford's injury and had a few good games
>but was a big disappointment much of the time. Has great quickness, but doesn't
>use it well either in transition or in the half-court game. He is a pesky
>defender, but he can't shoot and is often a liability on offense. An
>unrestricted free agent who the Bucks should let walk.

Yup. Basically plays college PG. Doesn't threaten the defense enough. Was
getting called for hacks every time he tried to blind-side steal somebody
vs. Detroit, which is a staple of his game. Without 5 steals a game he's
not very good. Much of that is coaching though, as with all PG issues.

> Erick Strickland (C): Rarely played for some strange reason, but was always
>prepared and played hard when he got a chance. A true professional. Isn't a
>true PG, but probably better suited to play that position in reserve than the
>SG spot. A good guy for the Bucks to keep around.

Yup. Not even a reserve PG though. His value is only at the 2. Jones and
Knight are mediocre true PGs, i.e. better at the 1 than Strickland.

> FORWARDS
> Desmond Mason (B+): A rising star whose all-around game is developing
>nicely. Needs to become more consistent from the perimeter and the FT line, but
>when he does (and it's a matter of "when," not "if") he's going to be a star. A
>terrific defender and arguably the best game dunker in the NBA. Mason is
>another key part of the Bucks' foundation and should be a starter at SF when
>next season begins.

Yup. Shoots OK too.

> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
>had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
>injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
>playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
>when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
>making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
>No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.

Everybody trades KVH, and takes a loss. Keep him. He was an embarrassment
to white males everywhere again, but he's an NBA homeless orphan, he was
beat up physically and emotionally, and the Bucks' as a team were all
spent. Give him a home. Juwan Howard he aint.

> Joe Smith (B+): Came over as part of the Sam Cassell trade and provided a
>MAJOR upgrade at PF. Plays with tremendous heart and doesn't back down from
>anyone on both ends of the court. Is the team's best rebounder and a solid
>source of offense as well. Some people already seem convinced he won't be as
>good next season as he was this season. To that I have just one word --
>bulls**t.

Maybe the team MVP. Fear the Turtle.

> Toni Kukoc (C-): Kukoc wasn't anywhere near as effective this season as he
>was last year. Arguably the most intelligent player on the Bucks' roster, he
>brings experience, savvy and offensive skills to the game, but simply cannot
>play at a consistent level anymore. It appears age has caught up with him. An
>unrestricted free agent, it's probably in the Bucks' best interests to use what
>little free-agent money they have elsewhere this summer rather than re-signing
>Kukoc.

Yup.

> Marcus Haislip (D-): Athletic, but has the look of a player who lacks
>motivation. Maybe if Van Horn is traded Haislip could get a chance as a backup
>to Mason at SF. Otherwise he'll probably spend next season riding the pine once
>again.

Haven't seen him at all.

> CENTERS
> Brian Skinner (B-): Should be playing PF, but played C out of necessity for
>the Bucks and played hard the entire season. Wasn't as effective in the Detroit
>series, but his work throughout the year provided a major upgrade at the
>position. Has a solid lowpost game that could get even better with more work.
>He can opt out of his contract for next season and the Bucks will be in serious
>trouble if they can't keep him.

His low post game is fine. He needs hundreds of hours at a freethrow line
this summer. Although I think he was 2-for-2 in game 5.

> Dan Gadzuric (C-): Good luck finding anyone who plays with more energy than
>Gadzuric, but for the second consecutive season he appeared to run out of gas
>down the stretch, an indication his stamina needs work. He isn't much of an
>offensive threat, but his shotblocking and rebounding skills are solid and
>should've been used more in the Detroit series. If he can keep making strides
>he'll deserve even more playing time next year.

Freethrows. He should have played in the playoffs. He's young and coming
along. Keeper.

The Bucks weak link is Gadzuric and Skinner's freethrows. They should hook
up over the summer.

> Daniel Santiago (D): Had some decent moments during the season, but is
>clearly a project. Needs to work on his upper-body strength so he won't get
>pushed around so easily defensively. Has some offensive ability which makes him
>a prime guy for the coaching staff to work with further to see if he can
>develop into a legitimate backup.

Strength is over-rated. Nice to have, but not essential. Ben Wallace is
80% finesse, as far as what he's good at. Santiago can play, and should
have in the playoffs. Keeper. I like lots of bigs with low minutes.

> COACHING/OVERALL (C+): The 41-41 record and first-round playoff exit merits
>a C grade.
>But given how hard this team played for most of the season and how
>impressively they embraced the team concept (a welcome departure from the
>previous two seasons), another notch has been added to the overall grade.
>Porter did a solid job as a rookie head coach, getting the team to buy into a
>team-first philosophy that served them well throughout the season. He was
>overmatched against Larry Brown in the playoffs, however, and needs to refine
>his rotational system. There's also no excuse for him not getting his team
>prepared to play in any one of the final three regular-season losses which
>served to undercut a fine season. But if Porter is half the head coach he was a
>player then he will learn from this season and be an even better head coach
>next year. And with a tremendous young rotation of Redd, Mason and a healthy
>Ford, the future is bright. Now it's up to GM Larry Harris to ensure that the
>steps forward that were taken this season lead to the Bucks becoming an even
>greater threat in the Eastern Conference next year.

Nope. A-. Porter had no business coaching in the playoffs, but he's
learning. This team, this season, A. Consensus Coach of the Year finalist.
If he isn't playing my system by next year, then his grade drops ;o)

At the GM level, the Bucks went to the playoffs with 2 of my favorite
ex-Sixers. The Sixers have AI, and no playoff run. A.

The Bucks still play with the class of Porter, Alcindor and Oscar
Robertson. Thier season was a credit to basketball. I'd try to keep this
squad basically intact.

Rick (Richard Allen) Hohensee
The Responsible Party
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Gary Heidenreich

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Since: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: 17



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:45 am
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

My grades, figured I'd piggyback onto yours. :)

europa2846.DeleteThis@aol.com (Europa2846) wrote in message
ews:<20040429231515.13568.00000538.DeleteThis@mb-m26.aol.com>...
> Now that the season is over, here's one fan's grades for the Bucks this
> season:
> GUARDS
> Michael Redd (A-): A legitimate All-Star who for the third consecutive
> season raised the level of his game substantially. Each season, Redd has been
> given more to do and each season he has responded by performing at a higher
> level. He slumped a bit in the second half of the season, due in large part to
> the absence of T.J. Ford, but his future remains a bright one. Given his
> unquestioned work ethic, there is every reason to believe he will learn from
> the mistakes of this season and improve his game even more next season. He is
> one of the key parts of the Bucks' foundation.

Redd: A - Third team All NBA, all star game. With his work ethic, he
is the "lead by example" player the Bucks have needed. Will get
better, even.

> T.J. Ford (B-): The best rookie point guard in this year's draft, Ford was
> on his way to a standout rookie season when a back injury shelved him for the
> stretch run. The early prognosis is surgery will correct the problem and he'll
> be back for the start of next season. That is vital because this team has a
> chance to be special with Ford, who has superb passing skills, can create
> offense against any defense and is a master in transition. The Bucks were one
> of the four best teams in the East with Ford. Without him, they were a playoff
> bottom feeder. Nothing more needs to be said about his importance to this team.
> His glaring weakness is his perimeter shooting. He must improve in that area
> and if he does there may not be any stopping him.

Ford: B - Injury hurt the team, not just in offensive flow, but he
was a solid defensive player, something that isn't talked about. He
played on the ball better than any of the Bucks. He did that as well
as anyone. Did ya notice when he went out, the Bucks D wasn't as
good? Part of that can be attributed to his defense.


> Damon Jones (C+): Cast aside by seemingly every other team in the league,
> Jones found a home with the Bucks this season. He was much better running with
> the second team and although he had some good games after Ford's injury, far
> too often the weaknesses in his game (poor defense, suspect outside shooting)
> were exposed as he played more minutes. An unrestricted free agent, the Bucks
> should not consider re-signing him to be a huge priority.

Jones: C+ - He'd be nice to keep, but at a reasonable price.
Depending on the cap and lux tax, he could get a great offer (like
Ollie did) which he should jump at. I have a feeling the Bucks will
get him back in the fold for 2m or less.


> Brevin Knight (D-): Picked up after Ford's injury and had a few good games
> but was a big disappointment much of the time. Has great quickness, but doesn't
> use it well either in transition or in the half-court game. He is a pesky
> defender, but he can't shoot and is often a liability on offense. An
> unrestricted free agent who the Bucks should let walk.

Knight: C- - Considering when he was picked up, he didn't do bad.
The Bucks wanted the quick point. Quick he may be, but TJ Ford he
ain't. Fair late season pick up.


> Erick Strickland (C): Rarely played for some strange reason, but was always
> prepared and played hard when he got a chance. A true professional. Isn't a
> true PG, but probably better suited to play that position in reserve than the
> SG spot. A good guy for the Bucks to keep around.

Strick: C- - WHY didn't he get more time? A true professional tho.
A Team Captain. Not sure, but I would imagine a great locker room
guy.


> FORWARDS
> Desmond Mason (B+): A rising star whose all-around game is developing
> nicely. Needs to become more consistent from the perimeter and the FT line, but
> when he does (and it's a matter of "when," not "if") he's going to be a star. A
> terrific defender and arguably the best game dunker in the NBA. Mason is
> another key part of the Bucks' foundation and should be a starter at SF when
> next season begins.

Mase: B - Brings energy. Better suited coming off the bench, I
believe.



> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
> had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
> injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
> playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
> when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
> making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
> No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.

KVH: C - Honestly, didn't add much more than what Thomas gave.
Actually took minutes away from players like Skinner, Gadz.



> Joe Smith (B+): Came over as part of the Sam Cassell trade and provided a
> MAJOR upgrade at PF. Plays with tremendous heart and doesn't back down from
> anyone on both ends of the court. Is the team's best rebounder and a solid
> source of offense as well. Some people already seem convinced he won't be as
> good next season as he was this season. To that I have just one word --
> bulls**t.

Smith: B+/A- - Wow. He is definatly a keeper. Still young too, 28?
He has played well all season. Consistent.



> Toni Kukoc (C-): Kukoc wasn't anywhere near as effective this season as he
> was last year. Arguably the most intelligent player on the Bucks' roster, he
> brings experience, savvy and offensive skills to the game, but simply cannot
> play at a consistent level anymore. It appears age has caught up with him. An
> unrestricted free agent, it's probably in the Bucks' best interests to use what
> little free-agent money they have elsewhere this summer rather than re-signing
> Kukoc.

Kukoc: C - He is a player that the others learned from this season,
where more of his value came into play. Depending on who is out
there, FA wise, the Bucks wouldn't be bad off re-signing Toni (if the
price was right).



> Marcus Haislip (D-): Athletic, but has the look of a player who lacks
> motivation. Maybe if Van Horn is traded Haislip could get a chance as a backup
> to Mason at SF. Otherwise he'll probably spend next season riding the pine once
> again.

Haslip: Inc. - I can't say I seen him enough to say anything positive
or negative about him. I don't think he lacked motivation, look who
is in front of him on the depth charts.


> CENTERS
> Brian Skinner (B-): Should be playing PF, but played C out of necessity for
> the Bucks and played hard the entire season. Wasn't as effective in the Detroit
> series, but his work throughout the year provided a major upgrade at the
> position. Has a solid lowpost game that could get even better with more work.
> He can opt out of his contract for next season and the Bucks will be in serious
> trouble if they can't keep him.

Skinner: B- - He played well at C throughout the season. Not great,
but he was as good of a center in the east as most.


> Dan Gadzuric (C-): Good luck finding anyone who plays with more energy than
> Gadzuric, but for the second consecutive season he appeared to run out of gas
> down the stretch, an indication his stamina needs work. He isn't much of an
> offensive threat, but his shotblocking and rebounding skills are solid and
> should've been used more in the Detroit series. If he can keep making strides
> he'll deserve even more playing time next year.

Gadz: C - A shame he wasn't played in the playoffs. Honestly, the
Bucks could have used him. A direct result of Van Horn getting more
minutes than the departed TT. I tell you what, you won't see him
dangle on the expansion list. I expect Gadz to get consistent minutes
again next season.



> Daniel Santiago (D): Had some decent moments during the season, but is
> clearly a project. Needs to work on his upper-body strength so he won't get
> pushed around so easily defensively. Has some offensive ability which makes him
> a prime guy for the coaching staff to work with further to see if he can
> develop into a legitimate backup.

Santiago: C- - Servicable big. Held the fort when Skinner was down.


> COACHING/OVERALL (C+): The 41-41 record and first-round playoff exit merits
> a C grade. But given how hard this team played for most of the season and how
> impressively they embraced the team concept (a welcome departure from the
> previous two seasons), another notch has been added to the overall grade.
> Porter did a solid job as a rookie head coach, getting the team to buy into a
> team-first philosophy that served them well throughout the season. He was
> overmatched against Larry Brown in the playoffs, however, and needs to refine
> his rotational system. There's also no excuse for him not getting his team
> prepared to play in any one of the final three regular-season losses which
> served to undercut a fine season. But if Porter is half the head coach he was a
> player then he will learn from this season and be an even better head coach
> next year. And with a tremendous young rotation of Redd, Mason and a healthy
> Ford, the future is bright. Now it's up to GM Larry Harris to ensure that the
> steps forward that were taken this season lead to the Bucks becoming an even
> greater threat in the Eastern Conference next year.

I would say overall, a B-. Played above expectations first off. They
always played hard, and really worked on playing D. Great personnel
moves by Harris. Porter did a great job in his first year...next
season, I would expect the Bucks to improve.

Gary Heidenreich
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Europa2846

External


Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:48 am
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

>From: "G. Smitts" 02434GS DeleteThis @asqeuica.com
>
>> Europa2846 wrote:
>>
>> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent,
>> Van Horn had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling
>> before a series of injuries pretty much rendered him useless for
>> the final dozen games and the playoff series vs. Detroit. He
>> couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but when he's healthy he
>> is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's making
>> far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry
>> Harris' No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
>
>You score him a B- than say the #1 priority is to trade him... Odd.
>
>
Nothing odd about it. Prior to his injury he was playing quite well. But the
fact remains his bloated contract (like Thomas' before him) simply has to go.
Van Horn isn't worth the money he's making.
>
>
>As odd as you previous KVH comment that even "if Van Horn was
>averaging a triple-double in this series" you'd still want him traded.
>
>
See above.
>
>
>Couple of obvious points: If KVH really was a B- player he wouldn't
>be the journeyman player he has become.
>
>
I didn't say he was a B- player for his career. I said that's the grade I
would give him this season with the Bucks. The fact of the matter is the guy
was averaging over 20 ppg/7 rpg and shooting 53 percent from the floor for a
large number of games prior to his injury. That's tremendous offensive
production.
>
>
>And if he was capable of
>averaging triple-doubles in a playoff series, he'd NEVER would have
>been traded to the Bucks.
>
>
As badly as Isiah wanted to clean house in NY, I think Van Horn would've
been traded no matter what he did.
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Just Me

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Since: May 18, 2004
Posts: 16



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks, others (more info?)

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 06:45:47 GMT, "G. Smitts" <02434GS RemoveThis @asqeuica.com>
wrote:

>> Europa2846 wrote:
>>
>> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent,
>> Van Horn had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling
>> before a series of injuries pretty much rendered him useless for
>> the final dozen games and the playoff series vs. Detroit. He
>> couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but when he's healthy he
>> is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's making
>> far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry
>> Harris' No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
>
>You score him a B- than say the #1 priority is to trade him... Odd.
>
>As odd as you previous KVH comment that even "if Van Horn was
>averaging a triple-double in this series" you'd still want him traded.
>
>Couple of obvious points: If KVH really was a B- player he wouldn't
>be the journeyman player he has become. And if he was capable of
>averaging triple-doubles in a playoff series, he'd NEVER would have
>been traded to the Bucks.

Of course!!!
We all know that!!! I mean if he is better than TT then europa is
crazy. If vanhorn were as europa wishes he would have NEVER have even
been traded to the sixers or the knicks much less the buucks.
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europa2846

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Since: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 19



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:35 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Just Me <Justme.RemoveThis@me.com> wrote in message news:<vrh49091c5v3uqs9o7c2m9qq9r2a3kcmoc.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> Of course!!!
> We all know that!!! I mean if he is better than TT then europa is
> crazy. If vanhorn were as europa wishes he would have NEVER have even
> been traded to the sixers or the knicks much less the buucks.
>
>
You could make an excellent argument that Isiah shouldn't have
traded Van Horn. In any event, I'm not sure who you think I "wish" Van
Horn is, but I'm well aware of his strengths and weaknesses as a
player. The fact is Van Horn was playing very well for the Bucks prior
to his injury, but the fact also remains he does not perform at a
level that merits the contract he receives (the same was true for
Thomas) and because of that the Bucks would be better off trading him
if they can.
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Just Me

External


Since: May 18, 2004
Posts: 16



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks (more info?)

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 06:52:46 -0000, r@cLIeNUX. (cLIeNUX user) wrote:


>
>> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
>>had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
>>injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
>>playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
>>when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
>>making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
>>No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
>
>Everybody trades KVH, and takes a loss. Keep him. He was an embarrassment
>to white males everywhere again, but he's an NBA homeless orphan, he was
>beat up physically and emotionally, and the Bucks' as a team were all
>spent. Give him a home. Juwan Howard he aint.

I as a white male feel the pain. I mean there is really nothing good I
can say about vanhorn. He has been traded so many times for a reason
whether as buck fans we want to admit that or not. Of course we want
to say he is better than TT because it makes us feel better but I
think the jury is still out on that. I will make a prediction. If TT
has a good season next year and vanhorn is traded we will still say
that vanhorn is better than TT or say nothing at all about TT having a
good season. I liked TT so I didn't want to see him go. But seriously
is vanhorn the epitome of the demise of the white guy or not?
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cLIeNUX user

External


Since: Jun 04, 2004
Posts: 285



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:26 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

humbubba.TakeThisOut@smart.net
>On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 06:52:46 -0000, r@cLIeNUX. (cLIeNUX user) wrote:
>
>
>>
>>> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
>>>had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
>>>injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
>>>playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
>>>when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
>>>making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
>>>No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
>>
>>Everybody trades KVH, and takes a loss. Keep him. He was an embarrassment
>>to white males everywhere again, but he's an NBA homeless orphan, he was
>>beat up physically and emotionally, and the Bucks' as a team were all
>>spent. Give him a home. Juwan Howard he aint.
>
>I as a white male feel the pain. I mean there is really nothing good I
>can say about vanhorn. He has been traded so many times for a reason
>whether as buck fans we want to admit that or not. Of course we want
>to say he is better than TT because it makes us feel better but I
>think the jury is still out on that. I will make a prediction. If TT
>has a good season next year and vanhorn is traded we will still say
>that vanhorn is better than TT or say nothing at all about TT having a
>good season. I liked TT so I didn't want to see him go. But seriously
>is vanhorn the epitome of the demise of the white guy or not?

He's not as overvalued as Juwan Howard was.
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SubSonic

External


Since: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <20040429231515.13568.00000538.RemoveThis@mb-m26.aol.com>,
europa2846.RemoveThis@aol.com (Europa2846) wrote:

> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van
> Horn
> had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
> injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
> playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post ...

Should we sign her to the MLE? We need another low post presence.

:-)

--
To send email, remove "no_spam" and "invalid" from the address shown above
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Just Me

External


Since: May 18, 2004
Posts: 16



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:54 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks, others (more info?)

On 30 Apr 2004 12:35:52 -0700, europa2846 RemoveThis @aol.com (europa2846) wrote:

>Just Me <Justme RemoveThis @me.com> wrote in message news:<vrh49091c5v3uqs9o7c2m9qq9r2a3kcmoc RemoveThis @4ax.com>...
>> Of course!!!
>> We all know that!!! I mean if he is better than TT then europa is
>> crazy. If vanhorn were as europa wishes he would have NEVER have even
>> been traded to the sixers or the knicks much less the buucks.
>>
>>
> You could make an excellent argument that Isiah shouldn't have
>traded Van Horn. In any event, I'm not sure who you think I "wish" Van
>Horn is, but I'm well aware of his strengths and weaknesses as a
>player. The fact is Van Horn was playing very well for the Bucks prior
>to his injury, but the fact also remains he does not perform at a
>level that merits the contract he receives (the same was true for
>Thomas) and because of that the Bucks would be better off trading him
>if they can.

Keep in mind 1 important fact. vanhorn has been traded 3 times in how
many years? Also the contract that you say TT has that is too much...
Who gave him that contract??? The bucks did!! It is their problem.
They must have thought he was worth it. Now the knicks did not give
vanhorn this so called crazy salary. So who is really at fault here?
Knicks or bucks?
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Just Me

External


Since: May 18, 2004
Posts: 16



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks (more info?)

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:26:57 -0000, r@cLIeNUX. (cLIeNUX user) wrote:

>humbubba@smart.net
>>On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 06:52:46 -0000, r@cLIeNUX. (cLIeNUX user) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
>>>>had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
>>>>injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
>>>>playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
>>>>when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
>>>>making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
>>>>No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
>>>
>>>Everybody trades KVH, and takes a loss. Keep him. He was an embarrassment
>>>to white males everywhere again, but he's an NBA homeless orphan, he was
>>>beat up physically and emotionally, and the Bucks' as a team were all
>>>spent. Give him a home. Juwan Howard he aint.
>>
>>I as a white male feel the pain. I mean there is really nothing good I
>>can say about vanhorn. He has been traded so many times for a reason
>>whether as buck fans we want to admit that or not. Of course we want
>>to say he is better than TT because it makes us feel better but I
>>think the jury is still out on that. I will make a prediction. If TT
>>has a good season next year and vanhorn is traded we will still say
>>that vanhorn is better than TT or say nothing at all about TT having a
>>good season. I liked TT so I didn't want to see him go. But seriously
>>is vanhorn the epitome of the demise of the white guy or not?
>
>He's not as overvalued as Juwan Howard was.
>
I repeat as a white male I think vanhorn is everything a white male
doesn't want to be. He plays like he is scared. Scared of what??? I
mean all ya gotta do is put the ball in the basket. GOD has already
blessed this white boy with a 6'10" frame!!! Sheesh!!! I am just
frustrated!!!!
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Just Me

External


Since: May 18, 2004
Posts: 16



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On 30 Apr 2004 07:45:03 -0700, gheiden.RemoveThis@mail.mcw.edu (Gary Heidenreich)
wrote:


>> Keith Van Horn (B-: An upgrade over Tim Thomas in terms of talent, Van Horn
>> had some huge games with the Bucks and was really rolling before a series of
>> injuries pretty much rendered him useless for the final dozen games and the
>> playoff series vs. Detroit. He couldn't guard my mother in the low post, but
>> when he's healthy he is a consistent offensive player with good range. But he's
>> making far too much money for the production he generates and GM Larry Harris'
>> No. 1 priority this off-season should be trading Van Horn.
>
>KVH: C - Honestly, didn't add much more than what Thomas gave.
>Actually took minutes away from players like Skinner, Gadz.

Add much more??? Are you insane???? He didn't add a DAMN thing!!! I
sincerly hope you are not one of those fans that really think vanhorn
and Thomas are equal. They are not!!!
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Daniel Ray Giese

External


Since: Mar 15, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:54 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks, others (more info?)

In alt.sports.basketball.nba.mil-bucks Just Me <Justme.TakeThisOut@me.com> wrote:

: Keep in mind 1 important fact. vanhorn has been traded 3 times in how
: many years? Also the contract that you say TT has that is too much...
: Who gave him that contract??? The bucks did!! It is their problem.
: They must have thought he was worth it. Now the knicks did not give
: vanhorn this so called crazy salary. So who is really at fault here?
: Knicks or bucks?

TT was paid based on potential and the counter-bidding of other teams. It
was a mistake, IMO.

New York traded for KVH knowing his large salary. One can argue that is
crazier than signing a young potential player.

And the fact that the Knicks have several higher paid players may also
indicate that they were much more a disappointment for not showing up in
the playoffs.

Dan Giese
dray.TakeThisOut@uwm.edu
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Europa2846

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: One Fan's Grades For The Bucks This Year [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>nba>mil-bucks (more info?)

>From: Just Me Justme DeleteThis @me.com
>
>On 30 Apr 2004 12:35:52 -0700, europa2846 DeleteThis @aol.com (europa2846) wrote:
>
>>Just Me <Justme DeleteThis @me.com> wrote in message
>news:<vrh49091c5v3uqs9o7c2m9qq9r2a3kcmoc DeleteThis @4ax.com>...
>>> Of course!!!
>>> We all know that!!! I mean if he is better than TT then europa is
>>> crazy. If vanhorn were as europa wishes he would have NEVER have even
>>> been traded to the sixers or the knicks much less the buucks.
>>>
>>>
>> You could make an excellent argument that Isiah shouldn't have
>>traded Van Horn. In any event, I'm not sure who you think I "wish" Van
>>Horn is, but I'm well aware of his strengths and weaknesses as a
>>player. The fact is Van Horn was playing very well for the Bucks prior
>>to his injury, but the fact also remains he does not perform at a
>>level that merits the contract he receives (the same was true for
>>Thomas) and because of that the Bucks would be better off trading him
>>if they can.
>
>Keep in mind 1 important fact. vanhorn has been traded 3 times in how
>many years? Also the contract that you say TT has that is too much...
>Who gave him that contract??? The bucks did!! It is their problem.
>
>
Not anymore.
>
>
>They must have thought he was worth it.
>
>
At the time he signed the deal he was worth it. As it turned out, he did
nothing to justify the contract and underachieved throughout the duration of
his post-contract tenure with the Bucks. That's why he got traded.
>
>
>Now the knicks did not give
>vanhorn this so called crazy salary. So who is really at fault here?
>Knicks or bucks?
>
>
Given how both teams had losing records after the trade, I don't think
either team should be feeling all that great about the way things worked out.
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