Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen!

Even a few here could last against Billups one on one,,,,but none here
could cut it against Iverson for even a second.

http://community.webtv.net/AnitaCotillier/AnitaDarling
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

Hosmerica wrote:
> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6au759F3915imU1@mid.individual.net...


>
> You're showing me stats that support his not doing anything different
> than what he's done his whole career. Thanks, but the point I was
> making was more about his attitude than about his numbers.

Exacty. My point is that doing "what he's done his whole career" does not
make your idea he might now change worth betting 22 million dollars on...
Denver already bet on it...



--
Laurel T
Kobe must be feeling guilty again;
he just bought Jim Gray a diamond.
Vescey
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

On Jun 7, 8:21 pm, "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAM... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hosmerica wrote:
> > "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAM... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:6b0ehnF3997buU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> Hosmerica wrote:
> >>> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAM... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:6au759F3915imU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> >>> You're showing me stats that support his not doing anything
> >>> different than what he's done his whole career. Thanks, but the
> >>> point I was making was more about his attitude than about his
> >>> numbers.
>
> >> Exacty. My point is that doing "what he's done his whole career" does not
> >> make your idea he might now change worth betting 22 million
> >> dollars on... Denver already bet on it...
>
> > And I don't think Denver has as good of talent on their roster as
> > Detroit...hence it may not be a bad idea.
>
> I think it is sideways at best BBall wise....that trade might be more to
> dump salary the following year and move Billups while he is movable if they
> are going to rebuild. On that note think you may all have to get used to
> that Dumars may be blowing up the team to rebuild.
> Maybe he can pull off a superstar deal, but that would not be Iverson.
> 'Sheed might get traded for a couple of young players and picks or
> something. Or they may well keep 'Sheed to use his ending contract
> themselves and to continue his side job develping the kids.
>
> It shall be an intersting off season.... =)
>
> --
> Laurel T
> "Maybe he's just trying to put some English on it."
> Jim Durham on Malone talking to the ball
> before a free throw.

Joe D. has already said that he sees no sense in blowing up the team
and going for the "re-building stages". He said as long as he's there
he wants them to be good enough to win. Now he has said that "everyone
is in play" but you have to know no one is leaving without it being a
good deal and can help the team in the up coming season and in the
future.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

"Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6b0ehnF3997buU1@mid.individual.net...
> Hosmerica wrote:
>> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6au759F3915imU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>>
>> You're showing me stats that support his not doing anything different
>> than what he's done his whole career. Thanks, but the point I was
>> making was more about his attitude than about his numbers.
>
> Exacty. My point is that doing "what he's done his whole career" does not
> make your idea he might now change worth betting 22 million dollars on...
> Denver already bet on it...


And I don't think Denver has as good of talent on their roster as
Detroit...hence it may not be a bad idea.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

Hosmerica wrote:
> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6b0ehnF3997buU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Hosmerica wrote:
>>> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:6au759F3915imU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You're showing me stats that support his not doing anything
>>> different than what he's done his whole career. Thanks, but the
>>> point I was making was more about his attitude than about his
>>> numbers.
>>
>> Exacty. My point is that doing "what he's done his whole career" does not
>> make your idea he might now change worth betting 22 million
>> dollars on... Denver already bet on it...
>
>
> And I don't think Denver has as good of talent on their roster as
> Detroit...hence it may not be a bad idea.

I think it is sideways at best BBall wise....that trade might be more to
dump salary the following year and move Billups while he is movable if they
are going to rebuild. On that note think you may all have to get used to
that Dumars may be blowing up the team to rebuild.
Maybe he can pull off a superstar deal, but that would not be Iverson.
'Sheed might get traded for a couple of young players and picks or
something. Or they may well keep 'Sheed to use his ending contract
themselves and to continue his side job develping the kids.

It shall be an intersting off season.... =)



--
Laurel T
"Maybe he's just trying to put some English on it."
Jim Durham on Malone talking to the ball
before a free throw.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

"Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:6b0mvuF38a1mlU1@mid.individual.net:

> Hosmerica wrote:
>> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6b0ehnF3997buU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Hosmerica wrote:
>>>> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:6au759F3915imU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>> You're showing me stats that support his not doing anything
>>>> different than what he's done his whole career. Thanks, but the
>>>> point I was making was more about his attitude than about his
>>>> numbers.
>>>
>>> Exacty. My point is that doing "what he's done his whole career"
>>> does not make your idea he might now change worth betting 22 million
>>> dollars on... Denver already bet on it...
>>
>> And I don't think Denver has as good of talent on their roster as
>> Detroit...hence it may not be a bad idea.
>
> I think it is sideways at best BBall wise....that trade might be more
> to dump salary the following year and move Billups while he is movable
> if they are going to rebuild. On that note think you may all have to
> get used to that Dumars may be blowing up the team to rebuild.

I can see him dealing pretty any of the starters, for sure. What I can't
see, though, is him doing something simply to clear cap space and give him
room to sign a superstar with a huge salary. His first big move as GM was
to trade Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins, and I think that's
stuck with him as the risks of superstar trades (seeing what happened to
Orlando) and rewards of hedging bets on underappreciated players (Atkins
was a decent player and Ben Wallace became great).

Likewise, he shed Stackhouse for Hamilton when Stackhouse was at the top of
his game not as a pure salary move but to grab a young player with
potential.

He may move guys in exchange for future picks (Otis Thorpe for the eventual
Milicic pick) and that may be what he ends up doing with Billups or Wallace
or others if he can't get a younger player he has his eye on.

> Maybe he can pull off a superstar deal, but that would not be Iverson.

You never say never, but so far Dumars has never signed a true superstar.
He's been willing to let guys go (Hill, Stackhouse, Ben Wallace, Okur)
rather than pay a surcharge for talent, and I think Rasheed Wallace is
probably the one truly high priced guy he's gone out to sign, and even then
he only kept Wallace after he took about a $7 million pay cut.

> 'Sheed might get traded for a couple of young players and picks or
> something. Or they may well keep 'Sheed to use his ending contract
> themselves and to continue his side job develping the kids.

I think his goal is going to be getting at least three younger players into
the starting lineup over the next two years. I just don't see him trying
to stretch for a truely high salary guy to get a ring next year and then
have the whole thing unravel.

> It shall be an intersting off season.... =)

It will.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

Grey Matters wrote:
> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:6b0mvuF38a1mlU1@mid.individual.net:
>

>>
>> I think it is sideways at best BBall wise....that trade might be more
>> to dump salary the following year and move Billups while he is
>> movable if they are going to rebuild. On that note think you may
>> all have to get used to that Dumars may be blowing up the team to
>> rebuild.
>
> I can see him dealing pretty any of the starters, for sure. What I
> can't see, though, is him doing something simply to clear cap space
> and give him room to sign a superstar with a huge salary.
>His first
> big move as GM was to trade Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky
> Atkins, and I think that's stuck with him as the risks of superstar
> trades (seeing what happened to Orlando) and rewards of hedging bets
> on underappreciated players (Atkins was a decent player and Ben
> Wallace became great).
>
> Likewise, he shed Stackhouse for Hamilton when Stackhouse was at the
> top of his game not as a pure salary move but to grab a young player
> with potential.
>
> He may move guys in exchange for future picks (Otis Thorpe for the
> eventual Milicic pick) and that may be what he ends up doing with
> Billups or Wallace or others if he can't get a younger player he has
> his eye on.

When we do speculation good to remember current conditions might as well be
considered a hard cap unlike those past times.
Now they are right at the escrow limit and need to re-sign Rip if he opts
out??
And need to think about an extension for Maxiell unless they will let him
become a RFA next year. Seems to me might want to lock him up at the rate he
is improving and may need to dump some salary next year.

>
>> Maybe he can pull off a superstar deal, but that would not be
>> Iverson.
>
> You never say never, but so far Dumars has never signed a true
> superstar.

Iverson no longer qualifies long term.
At 33 and his game depending on his quickness.
Billups game is grounded and does not depend on speed. I think Iverson may
run into a wall anytime.

> He's been willing to let guys go (Hill, Stackhouse, Ben
> Wallace, Okur) rather than pay a surcharge for talent, and I think
> Rasheed Wallace is probably the one truly high priced guy he's gone
> out to sign, and even then he only kept Wallace after he took about a
> $7 million pay cut.

Which was twice what 'Sheed was going to sign for that summer if he left.
He had turned down a 15 mil extension (AKA 'was driven out of Portland') to
go where he wanted for a mid-level.


>
>> 'Sheed might get traded for a couple of young players and picks or
>> something. Or they may well keep 'Sheed to use his ending contract
>> themselves and to continue his side job develping the kids.
>
> I think his goal is going to be getting at least three younger
> players into the starting lineup over the next two years. I just
> don't see him trying to stretch for a truely high salary guy to get a
> ring next year and then have the whole thing unravel.

I agree.
But I still see no reason to trade for Iverson expecting to keep him. His
age is both
a BBall problem and a cap problem. He makes 22 mil next season.
Would Iverson stay on a huge pay cut and/or accept a short contract and team
option? He will know it is likely his last contract and I do not see his ego
dropping to the MLE range or taking a 2 year...
Even a 4 year contract might create a huge cap problem with the over 36
rule. But without looking it up it might not apply, they have all kinds of
situations including if it is on Bird Rights and if an extension and if
signed before or after the players birthday and Iversons is in June.
But there is a chance if he was making say 10 mil a year for 4 years it
would count as 20 mil against the cap the first 2 years.

This is to prevent defered payment on the cap.
In actual life a lot of the compensation can be defered. Up to 30% IIRC.
Zack shows at 13 mil this year, 1 or 2 mil is an incentive (all-star) and
unusually the max allowed defered past the end of his contract, so he
actually was paid about 7 or 8 million this season.


>
>> It shall be an intersting off season.... =)
>
> It will.

Here on the left coast...
Rudy just said in a interview on a spanish sports program he is going to
Portland...which is great news...he is turning down 3 or 4 times as much as
his NBA rookie contract from Euroleague teams.


LT
--
"Yeah, I got a way to defend it.
Bring a bat to the game
and kill one of them."
Van Exel on the Jazz pick and roll.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

"Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:6b160mF39j9bgU2@mid.individual.net:

> Grey Matters wrote:

>> I can see him dealing pretty any of the starters, for sure. What I
>> can't see, though, is him doing something simply to clear cap space
>> and give him room to sign a superstar with a huge salary.

> When we do speculation good to remember current conditions might as
> well be considered a hard cap unlike those past times.
> Now they are right at the escrow limit and need to re-sign Rip if he
> opts out??

I've seen a lot treating Hamilton staying as a given, or at least the
likeliest thing. Although it's a stretch, I could see Dumars letting him
go the way of Ben Wallace if it looks like it's too big of a commitment.

> And need to think about an extension for Maxiell unless they will let
> him become a RFA next year. Seems to me might want to lock him up at
> the rate he is improving and may need to dump some salary next year.

Dumars is always thinking about the long term cap implications of guys,
and insuring he has space to maneuver.

>>> Maybe he can pull off a superstar deal, but that would not be
>>> Iverson.
>>
>> You never say never, but so far Dumars has never signed a true
>> superstar.
>
> Iverson no longer qualifies long term.
> At 33 and his game depending on his quickness.

Hey, what about that incredibly consistent outside shot of his?

At any rate, unless the Pistons completely change offensive tempo, or
they get a bunch of guys whose main role on offense is to wall off space
for Iverson to operate, I can't see him having much success in Detroit.
His mediocre shooting percentage would drop more and playoff defense
would lock him down.

> Billups game is grounded and does not depend on speed. I think Iverson
> may run into a wall anytime.

I think Iverson could be effective for certain teams in a Stackhouse role
til he's around 38 or so. But not as a starter commanding anywhere near
top dollar for long.

> Would Iverson stay on a huge pay cut and/or accept a short contract
> and team option? He will know it is likely his last contract and I do
> not see his ego dropping to the MLE range or taking a 2 year...

I think he'll be playing for a long time just to keep liquidity and to
keep creditors and the IRS at bay. He won't drop his demands until he's
forced to, though, and I can't see Dumars being willing to take him on
this year to deal with a protracted struggle when his contract expires.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

Grey Matters wrote:
> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:6b160mF39j9bgU2@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Grey Matters wrote:
>
>>> I can see him dealing pretty any of the starters, for sure. What I
>>> can't see, though, is him doing something simply to clear cap space
>>> and give him room to sign a superstar with a huge salary.
>
>> When we do speculation good to remember current conditions might as
>> well be considered a hard cap unlike those past times.
>> Now they are right at the escrow limit and need to re-sign Rip if he
>> opts out??
>
> I've seen a lot treating Hamilton staying as a given, or at least the
> likeliest thing. Although it's a stretch, I could see Dumars letting
> him go the way of Ben Wallace if it looks like it's too big of a
> commitment.

I think it is a different situation?
Rip is young and not a one dimensional player like Ben. Seems like he is the
one they would be building around and unlike with Ben if they use an ending
contract they can stay under the escrow and give him a near max contract.

>> And need to think about an extension for Maxiell unless they will
>> let him become a RFA next year. Seems to me might want to lock him
>> up at the rate he is improving and may need to dump some salary next
>> year.
>
> Dumars is always thinking about the long term cap implications of
> guys, and insuring he has space to maneuver.

That is a hard one. Do you give a player before his 4th season an extension
that kicks for the 5th season.
Good...you may well get him for less than market value a year later when
they are a RFA... if you let them become an restricted FA and they have
turned into a star, then if you want him another team may offer a lot more
than the extension or with a contract you hate to match...signing bonus,
trade kickers, stuff they add on to try to get the original team to let them
go. On the other hand an extension when if they are injured their 4th
season or the level of play drops off sticks them with a contract when they
could have let them go or had them back cheap...
It is a gamble and not sure how Dumars handles that.
Only Maxiell and Stucky likely is that a decission....



>> Would Iverson stay on a huge pay cut and/or accept a short contract
>> and team option? He will know it is likely his last contract and I do
>> not see his ego dropping to the MLE range or taking a 2 year...
>
> I think he'll be playing for a long time just to keep liquidity and to
> keep creditors and the IRS at bay. He won't drop his demands until
> he's forced to, though, and I can't see Dumars being willing to take
> him on this year to deal with a protracted struggle when his contract
> expires.

Exactly...only reason to trade him for Billups is to change direction on
Chauncy's long contract and play Iverson a year and dump him unless he takes
a massive pay cut.


--
Laurel T
"Every time 'Sheed took a shot he said
`Don't worry young fella, I get paid for this.
I get paid for doing this to you',"
- Kwame Brown
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

"Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:6b3d4pF38rhtuU1@mid.individual.net:

> Grey Matters wrote:
>>
>> I've seen a lot treating Hamilton staying as a given, or at least the
>> likeliest thing. Although it's a stretch, I could see Dumars letting
>> him go the way of Ben Wallace if it looks like it's too big of a
>> commitment.
>
> I think it is a different situation?
> Rip is young

He's three years younger than Iverson. His contract expires (I believe)
in two years. If he stays, Dumars may well face the choice of paying a
lot to keep a guy who may last as long as Reggie Miller, or may burn out
by the time he's 34. He's very fit, and I'm no so much thinking about
him slowing down but about how much he gets hit on all of his long runs.

> and not a one dimensional player like Ben.

I like a lot of his game, but he's got some serious holes, too. He's a
reckless ball handler and not a great passer, which is why Prince ends up
handling the ball much more than he does. This piece points out how this
can let other teams disrupt the Pistons' offense.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
AID=/20080608/SPORTS03/80608013/1051/SPORTS03

I wouldn't dump him for the sake of dumping him, but on the other hand I
think you get the most trade value for him at this point in his career,
and shooting guards are relatively easy to pick up.

> Seems like he
> is the one they would be building around and unlike with Ben if they
> use an ending contract they can stay under the escrow and give him a
> near max contract.

I guess the question I have is whether he'll be worth a near max contract
in a couple of years, at least the risk of one that runs for a long time.

>> I think he'll be playing for a long time just to keep liquidity and
>> to keep creditors and the IRS at bay. He won't drop his demands
>> until he's forced to, though, and I can't see Dumars being willing to
>> take him on this year to deal with a protracted struggle when his
>> contract expires.
>
> Exactly...only reason to trade him for Billups is to change direction
> on Chauncy's long contract and play Iverson a year and dump him unless
> he takes a massive pay cut.

And even then, Iverson has a huge effect on the way you run your offense
(and defense). It's not like you're taking a guy you can plug into a lot
of systems without a hitch. Taking him for just a year means a big
disruption this year, as you try to accommodate to his style of play, and
then very likely the following year when you change everything again when
he's gone.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

Grey Matters wrote:
> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:6b3d4pF38rhtuU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Grey Matters wrote:
>>>
>>> I've seen a lot treating Hamilton staying as a given, or at least
>>> the likeliest thing. Although it's a stretch, I could see Dumars
>>> letting him go the way of Ben Wallace if it looks like it's too big
>>> of a commitment.
>>
>> I think it is a different situation?
>> Rip is young
>
> He's three years younger than Iverson.

I thought a couple younger but even so 3 years is a lot in the nba...

>His contract expires (I
> believe) in two years.

Yes 2010 FA


>If he stays, Dumars may well face the choice
> of paying a lot to keep a guy who may last as long as Reggie Miller,
> or may burn out by the time he's 34. He's very fit, and I'm no so
> much thinking about him slowing down but about how much he gets hit
> on all of his long runs.

And his game like Reggie should last longer as he does not need the ball and
to create his own shot like Iverson.
Does not throw himself into the trees as much either.


>
>> and not a one dimensional player like Ben.
>
> I like a lot of his game, but he's got some serious holes, too. He's
> a reckless ball handler and not a great passer, which is why Prince
> ends up handling the ball much more than he does. This piece points
> out how this can let other teams disrupt the Pistons' offense.
>
> http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?
> AID=/20080608/SPORTS03/80608013/1051/SPORTS03
>
> I wouldn't dump him for the sake of dumping him, but on the other
> hand I think you get the most trade value for him at this point in
> his career, and shooting guards are relatively easy to pick up.

All star SGs still in their prime not so easy.... Barring some amazing deal
of course...

He is not overpaid and I do not see them moving their current best asset if
they plan to stay competitive while rebuilding. And with Billups and
'Sheed/Dyess they have good young players already they would like to
develop, they really do not have any upcoming SGs.



>
>> Seems like he
>> is the one they would be building around and unlike with Ben if they
>> use an ending contract they can stay under the escrow and give him a
>> near max contract.
>
> I guess the question I have is whether he'll be worth a near max
> contract in a couple of years, at least the risk of one that runs for
> a long time.

I did not realize he was 30, and if he opts out he might well get some
ridiculous offer (Ben style).
If he stays he is still worth using to build around and then see what is
best in two years?

If I was Rip's agent I would have been asking for a 4 year extension (is the
window closed on that before he has to decide on the option by the end of
this month?) .... or have him opt out to look for a 6 year contract taking
him though age 35. If he waits 2 years he is likely looking at a lot less
over 6 years. That likely holds even if he opted out and took the same or a
little less from the pistons than his current amount.


--
Laurel T
"Every time 'Sheed took a shot he said
`Don't worry young fella, I get paid for this.
I get paid for doing this to you',"
- Kwame Brown
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen! 

"Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:6b5162F39ulenU1@mid.individual.net:

> Grey Matters wrote:
>> "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAMNOT.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:6b3d4pF38rhtuU1@mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Grey Matters wrote:

>>If he stays, Dumars may well face the choice
>> of paying a lot to keep a guy who may last as long as Reggie Miller,
>> or may burn out by the time he's 34. He's very fit, and I'm no so
>> much thinking about him slowing down but about how much he gets hit
>> on all of his long runs.
>
> And his game like Reggie should last longer as he does not need the
> ball and to create his own shot like Iverson.

On the down side, he has serious trouble scoring when he does have the
ball, at least for more than a couple seconds. The offense doesn't flow
through him especially well. I'm not saying he's anything like, say,
Adrian Dantley, but I cringe when he catches and doesn't shoot or pass
right away.

On the plus side, he doesn't have the type of ego that demands he keeps
making the same mistakes, and when coaches or teammates get on him after a
bad play he tends to get back to his game quickly, which is tough to stop.

> Does not throw himself into the trees as much either.

What makes me wonder about his longevity is the number of hits he takes
while working free. In the NFL receivers take just one hit and only in the
first five yards, but not in the NBA. He's not taking NFL hits, but on the
other hand, he doesn't have any pads, either, and all of those slaps,
knees, hipchecks and so on add up over the years. There's a reason he
wears the mask.

> All star SGs still in their prime not so easy.... Barring some amazing
> deal of course...

All stars at any position are hard, but I think SG is the easiest to
replace, along with small forward.

> He is not overpaid and I do not see them moving their current best
> asset if they plan to stay competitive while rebuilding.

It would have to be the right guy, and the right offer may never come. The
fact that he isn't overpaid increases demand for him -- I think he's an
excellent value right now, and I'm sure a lot of teams would love to have
him. But of course, teams aren't eager to give up guys who work well for
them in exchange, so any trade opportunities would be limited.

I think the incentive to keep him grows as other vets are dealt, and
conversely, if deals for other vets fall through, it may be more appealing
to see what you can get for Hamilton, especially if his points can be
replaced. No sure things, though.

>And with
> Billups and 'Sheed/Dyess they have good young players already they
> would like to develop, they really do not have any upcoming SGs.

Afflalo may surprise you. He started when Hamilton missed a few games this
year, including a couple at the beginning of the season. He won't average
20 a game for a couple of years, maybe ever, but he's got good all around
skills and good IQ. It's way too early to say, but he could well be a 10
year starter in the NBA, averaging 15 and giving you lots of good defense.
 >> Stay informed about: Iverson for Billups,,,going to happen!