Well........ Spurs are champs again.....

Noah wrote:

> In doing so you're not opening up much that's new

Whereas you're going around breaking innovative ground with claims
such as:

the sixth most prolific three point shooter in the NBA is not an
outside shooter because he is a small forward

and

a guy who spends almost 50% of his minutes at the center position
cannot in any way be considered a center.

You opened the can of condescention in this thread on a point you were
quite off about. Own it and move on..
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

On Jun 18, 1:47 pm, Capn'O <dan.zin... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> the sixth most prolific three point shooter in the NBA is not an
> outside shooter because he is a small forward

In a traditional penetrate and dish scenario, no. Antoine Walker used
to take/make a lot of threes as a SF/PF. Does that mean he's your
ideal 2? Or does it actually become a detriment to his overall game,
despite the points?

> and
>
> a guy who spends almost 50% of his minutes at the center position
> cannot in any way be considered a center.

*Franchise* center, no. And that's one playoffs you're talking about
with the 50%, not his almost (if not) decade-long career in the
league.

> You opened the can of condescention in this thread on a point you were
> quite off about. Own it and move on..

Sorry...not trying to be difficult but I still stand by my original
post and have seen nothing here that convinces me I'm wrong. Duncan's
not a franchise *center* that the Spurs constructed a team around, in
the sense of building around a position. Eddy Curry should not be
either, in my opinion. Eddy shouldn't be regardless of what position
he plays, but the analogy is pretty much moot when comparing to a team
that built around their PF.

That's all I ever had to say, and that's all I'm saying now. With
luck, I won't have to say it again I don't think that's "quite off",
as you say, or "dead wrong", as Glenn says. If you or anyone else
wants to think different, that's your perogative. If you want to
debate it, I will continue to explain myself. Otherwise, I'm quite
thrilled to move on.
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

On Jun 20, 6:56 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> I don't think I understand this. Are you saying that F's are suppose to only
> score 15 ft from the hoop? How would a F's ability to sink a trey with
> consistancy hurt the rest of his game?

If an F is playing the perimeter all the time like a 2 instead of
cutting and moving inside it is going to make the guards' position
redundant and let the opposing defense bolster themselves inside.
Then you're living and dying by jump shooting alone. We've all seen
that fail enough times with the Knicks to know it doesn't really
work.

> but why would a
> 3 who can sink a three have to be considered a 2?

He wouldn't. I believe Cap'n is referencing the Rashard Lewis thread,
where he argued Lewis would bring a successful inside-outside game to
the Knicks and I disagreed, for a number of reasons. (If you want to
know what they are, please reference that thread first before asking
about it here).

> As Granville already said,
> this isn't baseball where the 1st baseman stands here and the shortstop is
> over there.

Look at what the Spurs just did. While they may fill in for each
other and continue with switches and defend a different opposing
player, they still run their offense fundamentally with the players
carrying out traditional roles. Bowen takes the corner. Parker
drives from the outside. Ginobili drives inside. Duncan plays the
post. Oberto boxes out and goes for the putback. And so forth. It's
just basic basketball stuff.

> How about this that was posted by someone in this very thread
> <<Duncan played 668 playoff minutes. 55% of those minutes were spent with
> either Elson or Oberto on the court. That leaves 45% of his minutes spent
> playing center. This has been the pattern for the last three or four
> seasons, with Duncan spending half his minutes at the 5.>>
>
> The guy said this has been going on for three or four seasons, not just this
> one. Can you show us he is wrong?

First of all, if you read it from the first sentence, you read that it
references 668 playoff minutes, not three or four seasons.

To simply throw in at the end "this has been going on for three or
four seasons" is not a convincing argument that it has.

If I was interested in continuing this debate, I could look up minutes
and bring up games in past seasons and illustrate other examples that
Duncan is not and has never been a traditional center in the mold of
Russell, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc. If he was, he'd be the starting
center and do like centers do. But since the point of this debate
largely seems to be "you're wrong"/"no, you're wrong" at this point
with little else to be gained, I'm honestly loath to spend the time.
I've made my points several times over now and I imagine they are
clear. If you don't agree with me, Glenn, then we'll just have to
agree to disagree on this one. People at home can form their own
opinions based upon what we've said, agree with one of us or the
other, and move on.

If your'e that interested in continuing the debate, why don't you
start by showing us he was right.
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

In alt.sports.basketball.nba on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:39:53 -0700 Noah wrote:

>On Jun 20, 6:56 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack... RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>> I don't think I understand this. Are you saying that F's are suppose to only
>> score 15 ft from the hoop? How would a F's ability to sink a trey with
>> consistancy hurt the rest of his game?
>
>If an F is playing the perimeter all the time like a 2 instead of
>cutting and moving inside it is going to make the guards' position
>redundant and let the opposing defense bolster themselves inside.
>Then you're living and dying by jump shooting alone. We've all seen
>that fail enough times with the Knicks to know it doesn't really
>work.
>
>> but why would a
>> 3 who can sink a three have to be considered a 2?
>
>He wouldn't. I believe Cap'n is referencing the Rashard Lewis thread,
>where he argued Lewis would bring a successful inside-outside game to
>the Knicks and I disagreed, for a number of reasons. (If you want to
>know what they are, please reference that thread first before asking
>about it here).
>
>> As Granville already said,
>> this isn't baseball where the 1st baseman stands here and the shortstop is
>> over there.
>
>Look at what the Spurs just did. While they may fill in for each
>other and continue with switches and defend a different opposing
>player, they still run their offense fundamentally with the players
>carrying out traditional roles. Bowen takes the corner. Parker
>drives from the outside. Ginobili drives inside. Duncan plays the
>post. Oberto boxes out and goes for the putback. And so forth. It's
>just basic basketball stuff.
>
>> How about this that was posted by someone in this very thread
>> <<Duncan played 668 playoff minutes. 55% of those minutes were spent with
>> either Elson or Oberto on the court. That leaves 45% of his minutes spent
>> playing center. This has been the pattern for the last three or four
>> seasons, with Duncan spending half his minutes at the 5.>>
>>
>> The guy said this has been going on for three or four seasons, not just this
>> one. Can you show us he is wrong?
>
>First of all, if you read it from the first sentence, you read that it
>references 668 playoff minutes, not three or four seasons.
>
>To simply throw in at the end "this has been going on for three or
>four seasons" is not a convincing argument that it has.
>
>If I was interested in continuing this debate, I could look up minutes
>and bring up games in past seasons and illustrate other examples that
>Duncan is not and has never been a traditional center in the mold of
>Russell, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc. If he was, he'd be the starting
>center and do like centers do. But since the point of this debate
>largely seems to be "you're wrong"/"no, you're wrong" at this point
>with little else to be gained, I'm honestly loath to spend the time.
>I've made my points several times over now and I imagine they are
>clear. If you don't agree with me, Glenn, then we'll just have to
>agree to disagree on this one. People at home can form their own
>opinions based upon what we've said, agree with one of us or the
>other, and move on.
>
>If your'e that interested in continuing the debate, why don't you
>start by showing us he was right.
>
>



MIN | MIN Played w.Duncan %MIN @ center
2003 duncan | drob willis | duncan
rs 3180 | 1282 445 | 46%
----------------------------------------------------
2004 duncan | rasho willis |
rs 2527 | 1394 55 | 43%
po 405 | 207 11 | 46%
----------------------------------------------------
2005 duncan | rasho nazr |
rs 2203 | 966 63 | 53%
po 869 | 43 360 | 54%
----------------------------------------------------
2006 duncan | rasho nazr oberto |
rs 2784 | 1003 810 118 | 31%
po 493 | 32 51 7 | 82%
----------------------------------------------------
2007 duncan | elson oberto |
rs 2725 | 781 699 | 46%
po 737 | 182 221 | 45%


Summary
Duncan's % of minutes
Minutes played @ center
rs 13419 | 43%
po 2504 | 56%
TOTAL 15923 | 45%
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

"Fistpout Trebuchet" <humehnity RemoveThis @example.com> wrote in message
news:59oi731ne14mb7qjrl6g19cc6udv4cbg44@4ax.com...
> In alt.sports.basketball.nba on Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:39:53 -0700 Noah
> wrote:
>
>>On Jun 20, 6:56 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack... RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think I understand this. Are you saying that F's are suppose to
>>> only
>>> score 15 ft from the hoop? How would a F's ability to sink a trey with
>>> consistancy hurt the rest of his game?
>>
>>If an F is playing the perimeter all the time like a 2 instead of
>>cutting and moving inside it is going to make the guards' position
>>redundant and let the opposing defense bolster themselves inside.
>>Then you're living and dying by jump shooting alone. We've all seen
>>that fail enough times with the Knicks to know it doesn't really
>>work.
>>
>>> but why would a
>>> 3 who can sink a three have to be considered a 2?
>>
>>He wouldn't. I believe Cap'n is referencing the Rashard Lewis thread,
>>where he argued Lewis would bring a successful inside-outside game to
>>the Knicks and I disagreed, for a number of reasons. (If you want to
>>know what they are, please reference that thread first before asking
>>about it here).
>>
>>> As Granville already said,
>>> this isn't baseball where the 1st baseman stands here and the shortstop
>>> is
>>> over there.
>>
>>Look at what the Spurs just did. While they may fill in for each
>>other and continue with switches and defend a different opposing
>>player, they still run their offense fundamentally with the players
>>carrying out traditional roles. Bowen takes the corner. Parker
>>drives from the outside. Ginobili drives inside. Duncan plays the
>>post. Oberto boxes out and goes for the putback. And so forth. It's
>>just basic basketball stuff.
>>
>>> How about this that was posted by someone in this very thread
>>> <<Duncan played 668 playoff minutes. 55% of those minutes were spent
>>> with
>>> either Elson or Oberto on the court. That leaves 45% of his minutes
>>> spent
>>> playing center. This has been the pattern for the last three or four
>>> seasons, with Duncan spending half his minutes at the 5.>>
>>>
>>> The guy said this has been going on for three or four seasons, not just
>>> this
>>> one. Can you show us he is wrong?
>>
>>First of all, if you read it from the first sentence, you read that it
>>references 668 playoff minutes, not three or four seasons.
>>
>>To simply throw in at the end "this has been going on for three or
>>four seasons" is not a convincing argument that it has.
>>
>>If I was interested in continuing this debate, I could look up minutes
>>and bring up games in past seasons and illustrate other examples that
>>Duncan is not and has never been a traditional center in the mold of
>>Russell, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc. If he was, he'd be the starting
>>center and do like centers do. But since the point of this debate
>>largely seems to be "you're wrong"/"no, you're wrong" at this point
>>with little else to be gained, I'm honestly loath to spend the time.
>>I've made my points several times over now and I imagine they are
>>clear. If you don't agree with me, Glenn, then we'll just have to
>>agree to disagree on this one. People at home can form their own
>>opinions based upon what we've said, agree with one of us or the
>>other, and move on.
>>
>>If your'e that interested in continuing the debate, why don't you
>>start by showing us he was right.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> MIN | MIN Played w.Duncan %MIN @ center
> 2003 duncan | drob willis | duncan
> rs 3180 | 1282 445 | 46%
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 2004 duncan | rasho willis |
> rs 2527 | 1394 55 | 43%
> po 405 | 207 11 | 46%
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 2005 duncan | rasho nazr |
> rs 2203 | 966 63 | 53%
> po 869 | 43 360 | 54%
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 2006 duncan | rasho nazr oberto |
> rs 2784 | 1003 810 118 | 31%
> po 493 | 32 51 7 | 82%
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 2007 duncan | elson oberto |
> rs 2725 | 781 699 | 46%
> po 737 | 182 221 | 45%
>
>
> Summary
> Duncan's % of minutes
> Minutes played @ center
> rs 13419 | 43%
> po 2504 | 56%
> TOTAL 15923 | 45%

You're up Noah.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

Granville Waiters' Ghost:

> You're doing exactly the same thing.

How about Vin Baker getting into trouble with cheese, again?

DG
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

Noah wrote:

> Anyway, if you really feel that's the case then I've already obviously
> said too much. I'm out. Say whatever you all want.

Well, you guys did beat this into the ground pretty good...in all fairness.
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182410449.608457.284060@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 20, 6:08 pm, "Glenn Greenstein" <lexa....RemoveThis@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Fine, if the fact that he plays almost half the time at C and a little
>> more
>> than half a PF due to the other C being on the bench means he is
>> exclusively
>> a PF to you....
>
> Please apply context, if you can remember what it was.
>
For what purpose? Are you suddenly going to recognize due to the personnel
on the floor in plus 40% of his minutes in the last 4 seasons that he is
playing the 5 spot and that qualifies him as such?
On second though, don't answer that. IMO, a lot of folks have weighed in on
this (Granville, Lee, Capt, and Fistpout) who think you can call Duncan a C,
but non of that matters to you. Even when presented with minutes played, it
doesn't matter to you so once again Noah, you win. You screamed the loudest.
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182443526.936553.58990@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 21, 5:13 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>> "Noah" <dontsendmeyers....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1182410449.608457.284060@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...> On Jun 20,
>> 6:08 pm, "Glenn Greenstein" <lexa....RemoveThis@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> Fine, if the fact that he plays almost half the time at C and a little
>> >> more
>> >> than half a PF due to the other C being on the bench means he is
>> >> exclusively
>> >> a PF to you....
>>
>> > Please apply context, if you can remember what it was.
>>
>> For what purpose?
>
> For the purpose of recognizing that the point was not whether Duncan
> has ever spent some minutes playing the 5, but whether or not he was a
> franchise center to be built around, in the mold of those who have
> earned that title before him and in the mold that is being suggested
> for Curry.
>
I really can't believe you want to continue this. What is it Noah, you need
to get the laat word in?
>
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

On Jun 19, 4:43 pm, Noah <dontsendmeyers....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 1:47 pm, Capn'O <dan.zin....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > the sixth most prolific three point shooter in the NBA is not an
> > outside shooter because he is a small forward
>
> In a traditional penetrate and dish scenario, no. Antoine Walker used
> to take/make a lot of threes as a SF/PF. Does that mean he's your
> ideal 2? Or does it actually become a detriment to his overall game,
> despite the points?

He's not comparable to Walker in that he actually makes his shots
though. Likewise, you mentioned in the other thread that we already
have a lot of outsides shooters but lo and behold our three point
shooting % was near the bottom of the league last year - either 6th or
7th from the bottom. Our guys sure do shoot a lot but outside shooters
it does not make them. The inside-outside game doesn't work if you
merely have guys that will shoot the three regardless of whether it
goes in.

And he is a threat to drive and take it to the rack as well (he gets
to the line a decent amount). His overall shooting% is good despite
the high volume of threes unlike Q, Crawford, Francis, or Walker.

Where he is a liability - and I absolutely agree with you on this - is
on the defensive end aside from padding his rebounding stats. Believe
it or not, I'm not a fan of Lewis' game at all. I just think, more
than Kobe or KG who we'd have to jettison all of our assets for, and
more than a Vince Carter or gawdawful Steve Francis whose demands on
the team subvert any attempt for chemistry to develop.

Who I'd really like to see come over this offseason is Gerald Wallace
who has more of the total package (great defender) - though he IMO he
wouldn't have as much of an effect on our offense because he's still
too raw to carry as much of the load as Lewis could. However, Wallace
would have to opt out and methinks he commands more than the MLE.
Bobcats wouldn't do a sign and trade for any of our junk.

I'll leave the Duncan question alone...
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182506240.381005.247720@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> The whole concept of a "3 point shooter"
> is kind of bullshit. Even the best at it were never really that good
> at it to a to be a force in and out of themselves

Reggie Miller waves his arms.
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

Glenn Greenstein wrote:
> Anyone can pass out of trouble.

Eddy Curry says hi. ;)
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again..... 

Glenn Greenstein:

> Reggie Miller waves his arms.

No, he can't Steve Kerr is holding them down.

DG
 >> Stay informed about: Well........ Spurs are champs again.....