It's over

levi wrote:
> Don Tiberone wrote:
<SNIP
> >
> > Funny how both teams made it to the WCF a few years ago. The Wolves lose
> > Cassell and Sprewell.

<SNIP>

Actually, the Wolves also lost Ervin Johnson to age
and bad knees. There's a pretty good case that he
was as important to the team as Sprewell. The only
stat that showed his contribution was the W/L column.
The Wolves didn't begin winning until he became the
starter.

Due to tedium, there's also the stories of Wally
and Kandi to consider that I will not opine upon, but
they aren't with the Wolves anymore.

Then there's the loss of Flip Saunders to consider.
The Lakers got Phil back, the Wolves fielded a rookie.

I think there's a lot of reasons why the Wolves are
sucking more than the Lakers three years after
their WCF showing. But losing four of their
intended starters (plus Ervin making five) and
sacking the coach is a large part of it.
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

"levi" <levi DeleteThis @visi.com> wrote in message
news:1166890430.495671.79600@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> There's another 82games article that examined "clutch
> play" from a couple of years ago showing that overall,
> Kobe and KG ranked 21st and 22nd respectively.
> I wasn't surprised, as the numbers matched *my*
> perceptions. Yet Kobe gets hyped and KG gets
> dissed.

I'm sure Kobe probably benefits from having some of his best "clutch"
performances on national TV, in big games, and/or in the playoffs. I think
part of the definition for most fans of "clutch" is "how does a player do in
the postseason?" and Kobe has had a bunch of huge game-winning and
game-tying last second shots in the POs, when the games are on natl TV and
lots more people are watching.

I agree with 82games' conclusions from the data that Kobe's poor overall
percentage is an indictment of the strategy of having one guy who "must"
take the final shot. It would seem to behoove the team to find ways to make
Kobe a distributor on those kinds of plays a *lot* more often as obviously
teams are keyed in on him in those situations and the biggest reason he's
shooting 22% FGs in those situations is because he's taking shots over
double teams, off balance, fading away, etc *because* the other team knows
he's the one who will be shooting.

We Laker fans have been hoping for this for a long time and Kobe has really
started to do that this year. First of all, his FGAs are down by about 10
per game, which says a lot by itself. Anecdotally, with the Lakers down 3
in the final seconds of regulation against the Wiz on Sunday, the ball was
in Kobe's hands on the wing, but he recognized the double-team and got the
ball to Brian Cook who nailed a tying 3 to send it to OT. Can't say I
remember too many times that's happened over the last 3 seasons...

So this "good Kobe" we've seen ever since last season's POs has stuck
around. I give Kobe credit for this but also to Phil and Kupchak for
assembling and running a team that is obviously much more capable of
stepping up in big situations.

I don't watch nearly so many Wolves games but I'd aver that part of the
reason he's "failed" in the clutch almost as much as Kobe has is for the
similar reason that over the past couple seasons KG has had few worthy
players around him.

>
>> And
>> obviously any team would rather have Steve ".400" Francis, Derek ".500"
>> Fisher, Ben ".438" Gordon, and Damon ".500" Stoudemire than those
>> clowns...
>>
>> And don't get me started on just how much Chauncey ".192" Billups
>> sucks...
>>
>
> <chuckle!> Merry Christmas, dude.

Back atcha! ;-)

brink
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

Mark wrote:

> "levi" <levi RemoveThis @visi.com> wrote in message
> news:1166900852.509163.190650@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > levi wrote:
> >> Don Tiberone wrote:
> > <SNIP
> >> >
> >> > Funny how both teams made it to the WCF a few years ago. The Wolves
> >> > lose
> >> > Cassell and Sprewell.
> >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > Actually, the Wolves also lost Ervin Johnson to age
> > and bad knees. There's a pretty good case that he
> > was as important to the team as Sprewell. The only
> > stat that showed his contribution was the W/L column.
> > The Wolves didn't begin winning until he became the
> > starter.
> >
> > Due to tedium, there's also the stories of Wally
> > and Kandi to consider that I will not opine upon, but
> > they aren't with the Wolves anymore.
> >
> > Then there's the loss of Flip Saunders to consider.
> > The Lakers got Phil back, the Wolves fielded a rookie.
> >
> > I think there's a lot of reasons why the Wolves are
> > sucking more than the Lakers three years after
> > their WCF showing. But losing four of their
> > intended starters (plus Ervin making five) and
> > sacking the coach is a large part of it.
>
> One other reason is just plain luck. As in luck of the draft. I think every
> GM is hoping one of these young picks turns into another Magic or Bird or
> Garnett. It appears the Lakers got 'lucky' with not one but TWO picks. I
> think MN sorta "got lucky" with Marbury. And Wally. But they both took 3yrs
> to become all-star caliber. And Chauncy Billups was another steal. (Loosing
> Billups was the Wolves #1 biggest bonehead mistake)
> MN however, currently has two new players who could blossom into stars.
> Especially Foye. But it may not be this year. If I were the boss, I'd find a
> Chauncy Billups or a Bonzi Wells and start these two young guns. Looks like
> a rebuilding year anyway.


Only the bad GM blames it on luck. You don't hope for another Magic or
Bird. Those are once in a life time things.
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

levi wrote:
> brink wrote:
>
>>"levi" <levi.RemoveThis@visi.com> wrote in message
>>news:1166787494.201407.6360@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>MB wrote:
>>>
>>>>ikrushlots@aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't think the Wolves are far from being contenders. There about a
>>>>>.500 team right now. Next season Foye will be a quality player, at
>>>>>least a third scoring option. Smith will be a quality starter. They
>>>>>have good role players in Jaric, Hassell and Blount. James has been
>>>>>inconsistent, but I still think he's a quality point guard. Davis will
>>>>>always be a guy who plays horrible at times and great at times. They
>>>>>are just one good player away from becoming contenders. McHale MUST
>>>>>find away to get that guy in a Wolves uniform.
>>>>
>>>>I'm sorry, but Kobe's not available.
>>>
>>>`s OK. We'd like him to stay over there in Lakersville
>>>shooting his meager .219 in "game winning opportunities".
>>>
>>> http://www.82games.com/random12.htm
>>>
>>
>>Well, KG's .238 just kicks Kobe's butt in this dept, doesn't it?
>
>
> I was aware of KG's stat -- I just enjoyed imagining
> Miguel's apoplexy when he read my post. Actually,
> (if you read up on the "Partisan Effect") he probably
> got an endorphin boost as his brain rejected data
> that contradicts his opinion. Drat!

Cute.

I'd be at much greater risk if I didn't know that any statistic can be
attributable to a variety of factors.

I guess it doesn't hurt to try. :)
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

"levi" <levi.TakeThisOut@visi.com> wrote in message
news:1166900852.509163.190650@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> levi wrote:
>> Don Tiberone wrote:
> <SNIP
>> >
>> > Funny how both teams made it to the WCF a few years ago. The Wolves
>> > lose
>> > Cassell and Sprewell.
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Actually, the Wolves also lost Ervin Johnson to age
> and bad knees. There's a pretty good case that he
> was as important to the team as Sprewell. The only
> stat that showed his contribution was the W/L column.
> The Wolves didn't begin winning until he became the
> starter.
>
> Due to tedium, there's also the stories of Wally
> and Kandi to consider that I will not opine upon, but
> they aren't with the Wolves anymore.
>
> Then there's the loss of Flip Saunders to consider.
> The Lakers got Phil back, the Wolves fielded a rookie.
>
> I think there's a lot of reasons why the Wolves are
> sucking more than the Lakers three years after
> their WCF showing. But losing four of their
> intended starters (plus Ervin making five) and
> sacking the coach is a large part of it.

One other reason is just plain luck. As in luck of the draft. I think every
GM is hoping one of these young picks turns into another Magic or Bird or
Garnett. It appears the Lakers got 'lucky' with not one but TWO picks. I
think MN sorta "got lucky" with Marbury. And Wally. But they both took 3yrs
to become all-star caliber. And Chauncy Billups was another steal. (Loosing
Billups was the Wolves #1 biggest bonehead mistake)
MN however, currently has two new players who could blossom into stars.
Especially Foye. But it may not be this year. If I were the boss, I'd find a
Chauncy Billups or a Bonzi Wells and start these two young guns. Looks like
a rebuilding year anyway.
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

levi <levi DeleteThis @visi.com> wrote in message
news:1166890943.139252.179740@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don Tiberone wrote:
> > brink <brink DeleteThis @invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:4v40k1F1a7odsU1@mid.individual.net...
> > >
> > > "levi" <levi DeleteThis @visi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1166787494.201407.6360@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > MB wrote:
> > > >> ikrushlots DeleteThis @aol.com wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > I don't think the Wolves are far from being contenders. There
about
> > a
> > > >> > .500 team right now. Next season Foye will be a quality player,
at
> > > >> > least a third scoring option. Smith will be a quality starter.
They
> > > >> > have good role players in Jaric, Hassell and Blount. James has
been
> > > >> > inconsistent, but I still think he's a quality point guard.
Davis
> > will
> > > >> > always be a guy who plays horrible at times and great at times.
They
> > > >> > are just one good player away from becoming contenders. McHale
MUST
> > > >> > find away to get that guy in a Wolves uniform.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm sorry, but Kobe's not available.
> > > >
> > > > `s OK. We'd like him to stay over there in Lakersville
> > > > shooting his meager .219 in "game winning opportunities".
> > > >
> > > > http://www.82games.com/random12.htm
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, KG's .238 just kicks Kobe's butt in this dept, doesn't it? And
> > > obviously any team would rather have Steve ".400" Francis, Derek
".500"
> > > Fisher, Ben ".438" Gordon, and Damon ".500" Stoudemire than those
> > clowns...
> > >
> > > And don't get me started on just how much Chauncey ".192" Billups
sucks...
> >
> > It must be killing Wolves fans that their team is going to be in the
> > lottery.... again.
>
> What's killing us is that McHale is still GM. You Laker
> fans probably missed the Britt Robson interview with the
> Wolves owner Glen Taylor. Fred Hoiberg is being groomed
> to (eventually) be the new GM. I figure that's going to be
> at least another season away.

Yes, well McHale refused to trade Gugliotta to the Lakers years ago because
he didn't want to help the Lakers. All I can say is.... thanks. LOL.

--
"Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in
peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy, but know yourself, your chances
of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself,
you are certain in every battle to be in peril."

-- Sun Tzu

"For Faust, the lure of Mephistopheles' services is greatly enhanced by the
fact that the price, albeit a terrible one, is to be paid later. For
politicians, the lure of the support obtained through public expenditures is
similarly enhanced by the fact that public debt will be paid -or reneged-by
next generations; often well after the end for one's political career."

-- Finance Minister of Italy Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

Don Tiberone wrote:
> levi <levi.RemoveThis@visi.com> wrote in message
> news:1166890943.139252.179740@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Don Tiberone wrote:
> > > brink <brink.RemoveThis@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> > > news:4v40k1F1a7odsU1@mid.individual.net...
> > > >
> > > > "levi" <levi.RemoveThis@visi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:1166787494.201407.6360@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > MB wrote:
> > > > >> ikrushlots.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > I don't think the Wolves are far from being contenders. There
> about
> > > a
> > > > >> > .500 team right now. Next season Foye will be a quality player,
> at

> > > > >> > least a third scoring option. Smith will be a quality starter.
> They
> > > > >> > have good role players in Jaric, Hassell and Blount. James has
> been
> > > > >> > inconsistent, but I still think he's a quality point guard.
> Davis
> > > will
> > > > >> > always be a guy who plays horrible at times and great at times.
> They
> > > > >> > are just one good player away from becoming contenders. McHale
> MUST
> > > > >> > find away to get that guy in a Wolves uniform.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm sorry, but Kobe's not available.
> > > > >
> > > > > `s OK. We'd like him to stay over there in Lakersville
> > > > > shooting his meager .219 in "game winning opportunities".
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.82games.com/random12.htm
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, KG's .238 just kicks Kobe's butt in this dept, doesn't it? And
> > > > obviously any team would rather have Steve ".400" Francis, Derek
> ".500"
> > > > Fisher, Ben ".438" Gordon, and Damon ".500" Stoudemire than those
> > > clowns...
> > > >
> > > > And don't get me started on just how much Chauncey ".192" Billups
> sucks...
> > >
> > > It must be killing Wolves fans that their team is going to be in the
> > > lottery.... again.
> >
> > What's killing us is that McHale is still GM. You Laker
> > fans probably missed the Britt Robson interview with the
> > Wolves owner Glen Taylor. Fred Hoiberg is being groomed
> > to (eventually) be the new GM. I figure that's going to be
> > at least another season away.
>
> Yes, well McHale refused to trade Gugliotta to the Lakers years ago because
> he didn't want to help the Lakers. All I can say is.... thanks. LOL.
>

I don't recall that one - but it does fit with my
theory that McHale overvalues "his" players.
That list includes Joe Smith, Wally Szczerbiak,
Troy Hudson, Eddie Griffin, and Marko Jarics.

Probably McCants, Blount, Davis, and James
and Foye too.

What were the Lakers offering in return? Kobe's
draft pick?
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

In article
<X1jjh.563143$QZ1.481198@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Mark" <Mark DeleteThis @markland.com> wrote:

> One other reason is just plain luck. As in luck of the draft. I think every
> GM is hoping one of these young picks turns into another Magic or Bird or
> Garnett. It appears the Lakers got 'lucky' with not one but TWO picks. I
> think MN sorta "got lucky" with Marbury.


They "got luckier" with their original pick that year.
 >> Stay informed about: It's over 

In article <D5ydnWaeCIDFkBfYnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d DeleteThis @insightbb.com>,
Araxen <araxen DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> MB wrote:
> >
> >
> > ikrushlots DeleteThis @aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I would trade KG for a Ben Gordon, Tim Thomas and 1st round pick deal .
> >> . .but that would be equal value, and IMO, Chicago would be stupid to
> >> make that trade.
> >
> > How does Chicago make that trade at all? They don't have Tim Thomas.
> >
>
> I think he means, Deng. I would do the deal in a heartbeat.


I think he meant *Tyrus* Thomas. I'd open a vein if that deal happened
(not that it's possible) -- it'd be Jalen Rose for Ron Artest and Brad
Miller all over again. Thankfully it won't.
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