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Next: New York Knicks: Surprising
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Since: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 361
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:14 am
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>sports>basketball>pro>ny-knicks (more info?)
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On Jul 15, 8:41 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack... DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> OK, let's get under the cap, and let's assemble a team of Duhon, Chandler,
> Robinson, Nilo and Curry (because we are stuck with him) and see how many FA
> like Wade and James will be chomping at the bit to be a Knick after we have
> our 4th consecutive sub 35 game win season.
> If we have nothing in 2010, we will still have nothing in 2011 so IMO it
> makes no difference. These players will want to join a team that can win,
> not one that is still rebuilding, otherwise James will stay in Cleveland
> where he is a God and Wade will stay in Miami where he has already won it
> all.
It does amaze me that this sort of short-sighted philosophy
exemplified by five years of Isiah has taught you nothing.
This is not an assembly of a team of Duhon etc. That's why you sign
Duhon to a two-year deal, not a six-year deal. There is no need to
keep the draft picks if they don't pan out (and it's pretty clear that
Robinson hasn't panned out and there's not yet an indication of
whether or not the other two will either).
WITH all of the players you have available, you've had sub 35 win
seasons. Zach hasn't had a winning season in his career. That's
somehow better than clearing it out and making room for deals that
will actually have value, and cap space to sign free agents?
As for 2010 -- you've got a lot of free agents. Getting James or Wade
is pretty unlikely, agreed. But what you are missing is that there's
a ton of OTHER good free agents on the market that year. It's a
question of supply and demand. When there's only one or two quality
free agents on the market in a given summer, teams desperate to win
now and have help always overspend for them (say, $110M for Rashard
Lewis last summer, or $65M for Baron Davis this year).
In the case of 2010, the big spenders will have their wallets tied up
with the marquee names. When that happens, the good players maybe a
rung below superstars will be much more likely to be had for
reasonable contracts, since all the big money will be pointed at the
marquee names. It's a rare opportunity to get some regular good
players in (and not on contracts that will kill the team for years to
come).
> Now if you think Nilo and Chandler will become big time players, then I
> would say getting nothing for Zach is makes no difference, but I think the
> two of them making a major impact in the next two years without a real PG
> are pretty slim.
Think of it this way. You bought a stock at $45 a share. It's
dropped to half that value at $22.50 a share. Nobody wants to buy it
except one person, and the company shows no sign of recovery and the
value going back up -- it's steadily gone downhill for years and is
still overvalued at even half its value. You can point to statistical
data that indirectly indicates "potential" of the company even though
the company has never realized that "potential", but the reality is
that the value of the company continues to plunge and potential buyers
see that.
Now, do you cut your losses and sell the stock when one person wants
to take a gamble on it at $22.50 a share, and take that money and
invest it more intelligently with something with real value? Or do
you stamp your feet and insist it's worth more while it's value
dwindles down to zero and you're stuck with it for absolutely NO
return, and have no money for it to reinvest elsewhere? >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 361
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:16 am
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jul 15, 8:45 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack... RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> Lee, if we have a team full of scrubs, I don't think it is going to matter.
> Everyone and their sister are going to make offers to these FA's we are
> targeting, and everyone will be offering them max deals. What makes the
> Knicks money any better than the Nets, Clippers, Bucks, Cleveland's, or
> Miami's,
None of those teams have anything either. Cleveland's got zero
players signed for 2010. The Nets have old Vince Carter and not much
else.
And we already have a team full of scrubs. Getting rid of the scrubs
is the idea, not hanging onto them. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 361
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:25 am
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jul 15, 8:49 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack... DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> There is no way any of those players get traded without getting something
> big time in return. Are the Clips already going to trade Davis?
Do you understand the definition of signing a restricted free agent to
an offer sheet?
Do you get that there's no trade involved?
It's no wonder you can't figure out why cap space is valuable. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:27 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d6389b00-db81-4caf-9bdf-e73b17124029@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 14, 1:03 pm, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
>> SO you think we should have taken the second round pick for him? IOW's
>> let
>> the Clippers have him for nothing?
>
> Yes, if 2010 is a real priority and they're not just blowing smoke up
> our asses.
>
> They've got four contracts totalling $45.4M going into 2010-2011:
> Zach, Eddy, Jamal, and Jared. The biggest piece, of course, is
> Zach's: $17,330,000 for one season of Zach Randolph basketball. I
> really hope it's just a false rumor and Walsh didn't really blow the
> opportunity to take $17.3M off the cap for 2010 without having to take
> any salary back or include Lee in the deal.
Noah, I understand what you are saying but this is not Eddy Curry, Jerome
James, or Jared Jefferies. If someone is looking for front court scoring and
rebounding, Zach is a guy that they should be interested in. He has value
unlike the other three. Even Crawford has some value if you need perimeter
scoring. Giving up assets that have value like Randolph for nothing is as
irresponsible as signing Marbury to a max contract.
> >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:30 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1876a3c8-1e4b-43e1-9991-fc4b5807be29@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 14, 5:14 pm, Lee Watkins <lwatkins.nos....RemoveThis@nospam.juno.com>
wrote:
> addition by subtraction.
>
> how many teams are going to offer cap relief for him? id take the 2nd
> rounder and the cap room and call it a day.
Thank you.
> assuming of course, you'll be able to clear enough other bad contracts
> by 2010.
Right now there's four, but that's the biggest one by far. Crawford
can probably be traded when he's closer to being done with his
contract. A David Lee/Jared Jeffries package for cap relief would get
rid of the third and bring the magic number down to $11M for Curry,
who I think we're stuck with until 2011.
I would be pretty upset if a Lee/Jeffries deal was turned down, but I bet at
some point, we will still trade Zach for something more than a useless
2nd.round pick. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:41 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Dan Gaters" <dan.gaters RemoveThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:C4A15C3C.2F708%dan.gaters@earthlink.net...
> Glenn Greenstein:
>
>> IOW's let the Clippers have him for nothing?
>
> Define "something".
> If we could believe W/D' for one nanosecond, our ultimate goal is to get
> under the cap for 2010. Our goal is not to get "something" for Zach. It
> took
> Isiah Lord Thomas III five years to not understand this.
>
> DG
OK, let's get under the cap, and let's assemble a team of Duhon, Chandler,
Robinson, Nilo and Curry (because we are stuck with him) and see how many FA
like Wade and James will be chomping at the bit to be a Knick after we have
our 4th consecutive sub 35 game win season.
If we have nothing in 2010, we will still have nothing in 2011 so IMO it
makes no difference. These players will want to join a team that can win,
not one that is still rebuilding, otherwise James will stay in Cleveland
where he is a God and Wade will stay in Miami where he has already won it
all.
Now if you think Nilo and Chandler will become big time players, then I
would say getting nothing for Zach is makes no difference, but I think the
two of them making a major impact in the next two years without a real PG
are pretty slim.
> >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Lee Watkins" <lwatkins.nospam DeleteThis @nospam.juno.com> wrote in message
news:g5gfnp$48t$2@news.tamu.edu...
> Glenn Greenstein wrote:
>> "Lee Watkins" <lwatkins.nospam DeleteThis @nospam.juno.com> wrote in message
>> news:g5ftdr$okp$1@news.tamu.edu...
>>> Noah wrote:
>>>> On Jul 13, 10:46 am, Pablo <pab... DeleteThis @stwing.spmBGone.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that's the strategy Walsh is trying. If he believes D'Antoni
>>>>> can
>>>>> get Zach to play well in his system, it would make sense to play him
>>>>> and
>>>>> raise his future trade value.
>>>> That's an awful big gamble. It assumes D'Antoni has a "system" that
>>>> actually works with this roster (doubt it -- again, we've never seen
>>>> the D'Antoni "system" without Steve Nash, who also ran the "D'Antoni
>>>> system" under Don Nelson in Dallas before meeting D') and that
>>>> Randolph can fit into it. He ain't exactly Shawn Marion.
>>>>
>>>> If he doesn't (most likely) and the Knicks lose most of their games,
>>>> regardless of whatever individual numbers he puts up, his value will
>>>> continue to plummet rather than rise, and we'll be stuck with him for
>>>> the duration.
>>>>
>>>> Teams are not going to be lining up to pay Zach Randolph $48M until
>>>> 2011. The current panic in Clipperland from Elton Brand bailing is
>>>> the perfect opportunity to take advantage of -- no other bad contracts
>>>> to take back and be saddled with. I have my doubts as to whether or
>>>> not that opportunity will come again.
>>> i gotta agree.
>>>
>>> if the goal is salary dump for 2010...you take the 2nd rounder and call
>>> it a day. what would you guys hold out for? an unprotected 1st? a
>>> lotto protected 1st? do the clips have any player worth taking back?
>>>
>>> it would seem to me that both teams think they have the edge over the
>>> other. NY thinks the clips are desperate for a scorer, and LA think NY
>>> is desperate to move zach.
>>>
>>> i'm not sure if either team could really get a much better deal. but
>>> the chance to dump randolph without throwing in lee.....you gotta admit,
>>> thinking big picture, thats not a bad deal.
>>>
>>> lee
>>
>> I have a feeling D' may have plans for Zach other than cutting him loose.
>> If so, this was the right move (not to trade him).
>
> if this is true, of course you dont give him away. but if this is true,
> how does that affect "target-2010"
Lee, if we have a team full of scrubs, I don't think it is going to matter.
Everyone and their sister are going to make offers to these FA's we are
targeting, and everyone will be offering them max deals. What makes the
Knicks money any better than the Nets, Clippers, Bucks, Cleveland's, or
Miami's,
>
> lee >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:49 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8ce14011-28f6-467f-833e-e955451bf054@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 14, 1:03 pm, "Capn'O" <dan.zin....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> So hopefully he'll come back to this deal if there's not another one
> he likes better. Or maybe he can finagle a little more out of the
> Clips since they're already the ones asking.
If it was true, it's beginning to look too late. The Clips are
already moving on to better options, it seems.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=...News-08
"The Clips have a variety of options to consider with $12 million-plus
in salary-cap space and figure they'll need up to a week to plot their
course, although they did meet face-to-face with Atlanta Hawks
restricted free agent Josh Smith in L.A. on the same day Brand was
introduced as the newest member of the Philadelphia 76ers.
The most likely scenario, I'm told, is still signing one of the top
"restricteds" (as the GMs and agents like to call them) to an offer
sheet. According to NBA front-office sources, L.A. has expanded its
list of restricted candidates beyond Smith and Charlotte's Emeka
Okafor to Chicago's Luol Deng and, yes, Philadelphia's Andre
Iguodala."
> Walsh hasn't typically gone for straight salary dumps...
Well, when you've got more salary than anyone in the league tying up a
lottery team for years, it's time to do something a little less
typical.
There is no way any of those players get traded without getting something
big time in return. Are the Clips already going to trade Davis? >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 361
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jul 15, 12:16 pm, "Glenn Greenstein"
<glen.jack... RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> It has nothing to do with that. Why do you need to panic now. They can make
> the same deal with any number of teams next offseason as well. The Clippers
> are offering cow dung for him.
$48M of cap space over three years -- with no bad contracts to take
back -- is not cow dung.
Wasn't it you who was always arguing about the great value of expiring
contracts?
Anyway, we're at an impasse. Between this and other comments you made
in this thread, I get the impression that maybe you don't understand
how the salary cap works and how free agents are signed. I can't
imagine why you would think it was "cow dung" if you did.
> When you put it that way, it is hard to argue. Based on value, I guess there
> may not be many takers. I just rather dump Crawford, James Jefferies or
> Curry for such a deal.
Well, L.A. isn't saying, "Give us a player...any player!" They
specifically want(ed) Randolph to fill the Brand void. They didn't
say, "we just want to take every bad contract you have for our cap
space". Opportunities to get rid of terrible contracts for nothing
are not regular in this league, and one has to take advantage of them
when they are on the table -- especially since they probably won't
stay on the table long.
> Not everyone is a great two way player and I think
> Randolph would have been much better on a team that had a real PG and a
> coach that the players would actually listen to. Thomas was such a joke last
> season.
So what was his excuse all those years in Portland?
A good player is a good player no matter where, and with whom you put
him with. One good player doesn't make a whole team good, but nobody
needs to make any excuses for real stars. Randolph ain't one, even if
he posts big numbers on lottery teams and gets paid the max. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 361
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:50 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jul 15, 12:51 pm, "Glenn Greenstein"
<glen.jack....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> but I still don't see these player just being cut lose for nothing in
> return.
If LA gives them a whopper of an offer, Atlanta and Charlotte won't
likely match. They can't afford to. Both of those franchises are
well into the red. It's not like the Knicks where there is limitless
cash at the GM's disposal. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:18 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:97174a35-c756-4984-96de-f33ac9c081da@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 15, 8:30 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> I would be pretty upset if a Lee/Jeffries deal was turned down, but I bet
> at
> some point, we will still trade Zach for something more than a useless
> 2nd.round pick.
Yeah, probably another big contract instead of the cap space.
Wheee....
I hear ya, but I don't think that will happen or we would probably have
Felton on the team instead of Duhon. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 726
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:143abbab-3f2d-4b63-bd3a-1ee191ada13b@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 15, 8:49 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> There is no way any of those players get traded without getting something
> big time in return. Are the Clips already going to trade Davis?
Do you understand the definition of signing a restricted free agent to
an offer sheet?
Do you get that there's no trade involved?
It's no wonder you can't figure out why cap space is valuable.
OK, now that I think it out, your correct, they don't need to make a trade,
but I still don't see these player just being cut lose for nothing in
return. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Oct 11, 2006 Posts: 646
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:53 pm
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Noah:
> We need cap space now. We don't need a player right now. We are not
> in contention this year. We are (supposed to be) rebuilding, not
> contending.
Not according to W/D' who said "cap space 2010" AND "win now". How you do it
is a mystery we'll see acted out on Broadway starting this Oct.
DG >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Jan 02, 2008 Posts: 260
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:57 am
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:49:05 -0700 (PDT), Noah
<dontsendmeyerspam DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jul 15, 12:41 pm, "Glenn Greenstein"
><glen.jack... DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Hey Glenn, can you separate my posts from yours in the responses? Use
>quotes or something? You haven't been and it makes it hard to dig
>through and find where your stuff is. Thanks!
I have been wanting him to do that for some time as it is murder to
follow his train of thought. I also say thanks for doing this glenn. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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Since: Aug 27, 2007 Posts: 1927
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:15 am
Post subject: Re: This doesn't make sense [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Noah wrote:
> They don't help the team win. That's why neither player has ever been
> on a winning team or gone to the playoffs (in the EAST!, in Crawford's
> case, where you don't even have to have a winning record)! You get
> it?
Small correction does not really change your point... Zach was on a 50 win
team and went to the playoffs and contributed.
Blazers lost the first 3 games to the Mavs. Nellie was starting Dirk at SF
with LaFrentz and Bradley and Mo refused to match the big lineup.
In the 4th game Mo (finally) put Zach into the starting lineup moving 'Sheed
over to small forward and they won the next 3 and came within a couple of
clutch plays by NVE of becoming the first team to come back from down 0-3.
Zach off the bench
game one 4pts 4rbs
Game two 3 pts 3 rbs
game three 8pts 10 rbs
Zach starting
game four 25pts (on 9-17) 15 rbs,
game five 22pts (on 7-12) 9 rbs
game six 21pts (on 6-10) 10 rbs
game seven 14pts (on 5-12) 10 rbs
--
Laurel T
"Yeah, I got a way to defend it.
Bring a bat to the game
and kill one of them."
Van Exel on the Jazz pick and roll. >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense |
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