This doesn't make sense

"Lee Watkins" <lwatkins.nospam.TakeThisOut@nospam.juno.com> wrote in message
news:g5l3su$1fu$1@news.tamu.edu...
> Glenn Greenstein wrote:
>
>>
>> If I only have one stock like that, you make a good case, but when I have
>> a whole team loaded with them and this is the best of the bad ones I
>> have, I'll try to see if I can do better. The season has not even started
>> yet ans we can still trade Zach up to Feb. If some PF on a team that has
>> a shot at making the playoffs gets injured and the back up will not get
>> them over the hump, I think Walsh will have a chance to move him.
> ok i understand and appreciate the glass-half-full approach here.
>
> but let me ask you this. how often is a $15mil player traded at the
> deadline? usually a deal like this is part of a big offseason plan, where
> teams arent under pressure to get something done by date_X. they have
> time to made additional trades, tweak the roster.
>
> i just dont see a deal with better long term benefit popping up,
> especially now that the clippers took on camby.
>
> dont get me wrong, i think camby is a pretty bad fit for the clips, but
> thats a whole different story...
>
> lee

The Camby deal has forced me to change my position on this. Obviously Walsh
screwed the pooch here.
On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the best
shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round pick. His
contract was also cheap relatively speaking.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

I stand corrected. Zach went to the playoffs once, and lost in the
first round. That was pre-gazillion dollar contract, though, and pre-
team-leader status, no?

On Jul 16, 8:15 am, "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAM....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Noah wrote:
> > They don't help the team win.  That's why neither player has ever been
> > on a winning team or gone to the playoffs (in the EAST!, in Crawford's
> > case, where you don't even have to have a winning record)!  You get
> > it?
>
> Small correction does not really change your point... Zach was on a 50 win
> team and went to the playoffs and contributed.
> Blazers lost the first 3 games to the Mavs. Nellie was starting Dirk at SF
> with LaFrentz and Bradley and Mo refused to match the big lineup.
> In the 4th game Mo (finally) put Zach into the starting lineup moving 'Sheed
> over to small forward and they won the next 3 and came within a couple of
> clutch plays by NVE of becoming the first team to come back from down 0-3..
>
> Zach off the bench
> game one        4pts 4rbs
> Game two        3 pts 3 rbs
> game three       8pts 10 rbs
>
> Zach starting
> game four       25pts  (on 9-17)  15 rbs,
> game five       22pts  (on 7-12)    9 rbs
> game six         21pts  (on 6-10)  10 rbs
> game seven   14pts  (on 5-12)  10 rbs
>
> --
> Laurel T
> "Yeah, I got a way to defend it.
> Bring a bat to the game
>  and kill one of them."
> Van Exel on the Jazz pick and roll.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

On Jul 16, 9:44 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the best
> shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round pick. His
> contract was also cheap relatively speaking.- Hide quoted text -

You're still not understanding this cap space thing, are you? It
isn't about the pick. That's just a throw-in. They traded Camby for
cap relief, not for the pick.

In the case of Denver, the owner apparently demanded that they cut
costs. They were paying luxury tax for Camby -- which means they pay
double his salary, one salary to him and one to the league -- because
they were over the cap. So that means about $15-16M per year for that
one guy.

Meanwhile, they've lost every year in the first round -- last year
they barely made the playoffs before getting swept in round 1 -- and
Camby's not getting any younger.

For whatever Camby's blocking stats are, I don't think there are many
that would say he's the best *center* in the league.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

On Jul 16, 9:44 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> "Lee Watkins" <lwatkins.nos....DeleteThis@nospam.juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:g5l3su$1fu$1@news.tamu.edu...
>
>
>
> > Glenn Greenstein wrote:
>
> >> If I only have one stock like that, you make a good case, but when I have
> >> a whole team loaded with them and this is the best of the bad ones I
> >> have, I'll try to see if I can do better. The season has not even started
> >> yet ans we can still trade Zach up to Feb. If some PF on a team that has
> >> a shot at making the playoffs gets injured and the back up will not get
> >> them over the hump, I think Walsh will have a chance to move him.
> > ok i understand and appreciate the glass-half-full approach here.
>
> > but let me ask you this. how often is a $15mil player traded at the
> > deadline? usually a deal like this is part of a big offseason plan, where
> > teams arent under pressure to get something done by date_X. they have
> > time to made additional trades, tweak the roster.
>
> > i just dont see a deal with better long term benefit popping up,
> > especially now that the clippers took on camby.
>
> > dont get me wrong, i think camby is a pretty bad fit for the clips, but
> > thats a whole different story...
>
> > lee
>
> The Camby deal has forced me to change my position on this. Obviously Walsh
> screwed the pooch here.
> On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the best
> shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round pick. His
> contract was also cheap relatively speaking.

It is likely that Denver won't get anything. If Denver has a better
pick than the Clips, they get nothing.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

On Jul 17, 8:17 am, Noah <dontsendmeyers....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 16, 9:44 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the best
> > shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round pick. His
> > contract was also cheap relatively speaking.- Hide quoted text -
>
> You're still not understanding this cap space thing, are you? It
> isn't about the pick. That's just a throw-in. They traded Camby for
> cap relief, not for the pick.
>
> In the case of Denver, the owner apparently demanded that they cut
> costs. They were paying luxury tax for Camby -- which means they pay
> double his salary, one salary to him and one to the league -- because
> they were over the cap. So that means about $15-16M per year for that
> one guy.
>
> Meanwhile, they've lost every year in the first round -- last year
> they barely made the playoffs before getting swept in round 1 -- and
> Camby's not getting any younger.
>
> For whatever Camby's blocking stats are, I don't think there are many
> that would say he's the best *center* in the league.

He was DPOY in 07 and led the league in blocks, second in rebounds in
08. He's not Eddy Curry. I understand about the cap, but to GIVE the
guy away is ridiculous. He played 35 mpg in 79 of 82 games last year
too.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

Frank Rizzo wrote:
> On Jul 17, 8:17 am, Noah <dontsendmeyers....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 16, 9:44 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the best
>>> shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round pick. His
>>> contract was also cheap relatively speaking.- Hide quoted text -
>> You're still not understanding this cap space thing, are you? It
>> isn't about the pick. That's just a throw-in. They traded Camby for
>> cap relief, not for the pick.
>>
>> In the case of Denver, the owner apparently demanded that they cut
>> costs. They were paying luxury tax for Camby -- which means they pay
>> double his salary, one salary to him and one to the league -- because
>> they were over the cap. So that means about $15-16M per year for that
>> one guy.
>>
>> Meanwhile, they've lost every year in the first round -- last year
>> they barely made the playoffs before getting swept in round 1 -- and
>> Camby's not getting any younger.
>>
>> For whatever Camby's blocking stats are, I don't think there are many
>> that would say he's the best *center* in the league.
>
> He was DPOY in 07 and led the league in blocks, second in rebounds in
> 08. He's not Eddy Curry. I understand about the cap, but to GIVE the
> guy away is ridiculous. He played 35 mpg in 79 of 82 games last year
> too.

IMO they felt they had to do something about the salary cap. it was
either camby, trade the face of the franchise, or find someoen to take
iverson.

unfortunately for the fans in denver, camby was the most tradeable asset
they had.


lee
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

On Jul 17, 1:08 pm, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> << I didn't know Denver was capped out.

Anthony, Iverson, Martin, and Nene make eight figures a year each.

> He's the best defensive C in the league.

That may be in the stat lines, but Denver wasn't exactly known for
their defense last year. In fact, they were probably the worst
defensive team in the league behind the Knicks, or at least amongst
the worst defensive teams in the league. (Laurel?) So it didn't do
much good for their defense.

> How much was Denver over the cap? I think Camby wasn't even making 8 million
> a year.

That makes for $16M per year with the luxury tax. Lot of money for a
team going absolutely nowhere, so I'm sure that's why they wanted to
cut costs.

> Also, Nazr was worth 2 first round picks and Camby is only worth a second?
>  >>

Really? After all that you still think it's about the picks and not
the cap space? I don't think you're ever going to get it. I give up.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

"Noah" <dontsendmeyerspam.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e12c0ef1-b55a-4030-9c68-1f35d4da2d34@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 16, 9:44 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....TakeThisOut@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the best
> shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round pick. His
> contract was also cheap relatively speaking.- Hide quoted text -

You're still not understanding this cap space thing, are you? It
isn't about the pick. That's just a throw-in. They traded Camby for
cap relief, not for the pick.

In the case of Denver, the owner apparently demanded that they cut
costs. They were paying luxury tax for Camby -- which means they pay
double his salary, one salary to him and one to the league -- because
they were over the cap. So that means about $15-16M per year for that
one guy.

Meanwhile, they've lost every year in the first round -- last year
they barely made the playoffs before getting swept in round 1 -- and
Camby's not getting any younger.

For whatever Camby's blocking stats are, I don't think there are many
that would say he's the best *center* in the league.

<< I didn't know Denver was capped out.
He's the best defensive C in the league.
How much was Denver over the cap? I think Camby wasn't even making 8 million
a year.
Also, Nazr was worth 2 first round picks and Camby is only worth a second?
>>
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

Glenn Greenstein wrote:

>
> << I didn't know Denver was capped out.
> He's the best defensive C in the league.
> How much was Denver over the cap? I think Camby wasn't even making 8 million
> a year.
> Also, Nazr was worth 2 first round picks and Camby is only worth a second?
> >>
>
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/denver.htm


i BELIEVE the cap is around $60,000,000, and the tax threshhold is
$72,000,000

camby is making $8 with 2 years left...pretty reasonable for what he can
do on the court. but being over the tax threshhold, the nuggs were
paying a dollar for dollar tax on his contract.

dumping his contract gets them out of the luxary tax, and gives them
wiggle room if they need to match a contract offered to JR smith, or
give him an extension for next season.

nazr was worth 2 1st rounders...remember one was pretty late in the 1st
round though. im not sure what isiah was thinking when he made that
deal. he got a longer bigger contract for a lesser player. i guess he
just believe his own hype about his drafting skills.

lee
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

Noah wrote:
> I stand corrected. Zach went to the playoffs once, and lost in the
> first round. That was pre-gazillion dollar contract, though, and pre-
> team-leader status, no?

And pre micro-fracture surgery. I noted it did not change your point, nor am
I arguing it.

The reason Dallas was playing them was because the 60 win spurs held the
tiebreaker. 6th seeds with 50 wins are supposed to get beat by 60 win teams.
And this one had 2 future MVPs on it.
Would have been easy to tank the 4th game and go on vaccation, instead they
became only the 2nd team to get to a game 7 after being down 0-3.


--
Laurel T
"I told him,'Son, what is it with you. Is it ignorance or apathy?'
He said, 'Coach, I don't know and I don't care."
Frank Layden


>
> On Jul 16, 8:15 am, "Terraholm" <TerraholmSPAM....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Noah wrote:
>>> They don't help the team win. That's why neither player has ever
>>> been on a winning team or gone to the playoffs (in the EAST!, in
>>> Crawford's case, where you don't even have to have a winning
>>> record)! You get it?
>>
>> Small correction does not really change your point... Zach was on a
>> 50 win team and went to the playoffs and contributed.
>> Blazers lost the first 3 games to the Mavs. Nellie was starting Dirk
>> at SF with LaFrentz and Bradley and Mo refused to match the big
>> lineup.
>> In the 4th game Mo (finally) put Zach into the starting lineup
>> moving 'Sheed over to small forward and they won the next 3 and came
>> within a couple of clutch plays by NVE of becoming the first team to
>> come back from down 0-3.
>>
>> Zach off the bench
>> game one 4pts 4rbs
>> Game two 3 pts 3 rbs
>> game three 8pts 10 rbs
>>
>> Zach starting
>> game four 25pts (on 9-17) 15 rbs,
>> game five 22pts (on 7-12) 9 rbs
>> game six 21pts (on 6-10) 10 rbs
>> game seven 14pts (on 5-12) 10 rbs
>>
>> --
>> Laurel T
>> "Yeah, I got a way to defend it.
>> Bring a bat to the game
>> and kill one of them."
>> Van Exel on the Jazz pick and roll.
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

Noah wrote:
> On Jul 16, 9:44 am, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack... RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On another note, I can't believe how stupid Denver was to trade the
>> best shot blocking/rebounding big in the league for a second round
>> pick. His contract was also cheap relatively speaking.- Hide quoted
>> text -
>
> You're still not understanding this cap space thing, are you? It
> isn't about the pick. That's just a throw-in. They traded Camby for
> cap relief, not for the pick.
>
> In the case of Denver, the owner apparently demanded that they cut
> costs. They were paying luxury tax for Camby -- which means they pay
> double his salary, one salary to him and one to the league -- because
> they were over the cap. So that means about $15-16M per year for that
> one guy.

Camby makes 11.25 million next year, almost all of it was over the tax line.
So that is 22.5 in salary and tax plus they now will get back 2 or 3 million
from the teams over the tax. So more to 23 to 25 million difference for one
player.
Plus he has another season at 10.9 mil.

They also have a 11 mil trade exception that will still be good for a couple
of weeks if they dump some salary and can use it, perhaps by letting Iverson
and his 22 million walk next July 1st


--
Laurel T
Kobe must be feeling guilty again;
he just bought Jim Gray a diamond.
Vescey
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

Lee Watkins wrote:
> Glenn Greenstein wrote:
>
>>
>> << I didn't know Denver was capped out.
>> He's the best defensive C in the league.
>> How much was Denver over the cap? I think Camby wasn't even making 8
>> million a year.
>> Also, Nazr was worth 2 first round picks and Camby is only worth a
>> second? >>
>>
> http://hoopshype.com/salaries/denver.htm
>
>
> i BELIEVE the cap is around $60,000,000, and the tax threshhold is
> $72,000,000

58.7 for the cap 71 for the tax line

>
> camby is making $8 with 2 years left...pretty reasonable for what he
> can do on the court. but being over the tax threshhold, the nuggs
> were paying a dollar for dollar tax on his contract.

How much does he make? I think the variety in reporting is because he has
bonuses which count against the cap now that he has played the number of
games required.

Hoopshype has him at 8 mil next year and then 7.6

ESPN trade machine has him at 10 mil
Denver paper says they got a 10 mil trade exception
Storyteller has him at 11.25 next year, then 10.9. (22.15)
Real GM also has him at 11.25 and 10.9

Patricia Bender's site had him at $11.25 mil last year
7/16/04 6 yrs $57 million
Patricia and BBall Reference have him making 37.7 over the last 4 years
which leaves 19.3.


--
Laurel T
"A tough day at the office is even tougher
when your OFFICE contains spectator seating."
- Nik Posa
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense 

Noah wrote:
> On Jul 17, 1:08 pm, "Glenn Greenstein" <glen.jack....DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
>> << I didn't know Denver was capped out.
>
> Anthony, Iverson, Martin, and Nene make eight figures a year each.
>
>> He's the best defensive C in the league.
>
> That may be in the stat lines, but Denver wasn't exactly known for
> their defense last year. In fact, they were probably the worst
> defensive team in the league behind the Knicks, or at least amongst
> the worst defensive teams in the league. (Laurel?) So it didn't do
> much good for their defense.

Only GSW gives up more pts. 107 per.
However they are middle of the pack for defensive FGP
They play defense with steals and blocks and upcourt pressure.
They did lead the league in both catagories

Camby gets all those blocks because everyone beats their guards...=)
IIRC he is like Theo blocks from the weak side more than his own guy.



--
Laurel T
"They're really aggressive. They're like
roaches on bread - you drop some
on the floor and, boom, they're on it."
Kevin Garnett, on Detroit's defense
 >> Stay informed about: This doesn't make sense