Will the suspensions be staggered?

Mr Black wrote:

> the union will try to appeal..........but Stern wont let this
> slide.........all he is thinking about is the potential for lost revenue.
>
> MrB.
>
> <Jellyous> wrote in message
> news:n1t2q0tukk7k1uc0pmk25fuf4uac5t59oe@4ax.com...
>
>>Any way for Artest to appeal the suspension and get it reduced to maybe 20
>
> or
>
>>30 games?
>>
>>Maybe J.O'Neal and S.Jackson can reduce theirs to 10 games.
>>
>
>
>

The appeal is out of Stern's hands. He doesn't own the NBA.

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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

The players should strike to teach the Fuhrer a lesson, he must defend his
players.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Michael Falkner wrote:

> jslater RemoveThis @utnet.utoledo.edu (jslater) wrote in message news:<b4bed0cf.0411220652.74ae9bd7 RemoveThis @posting.google.com>...
>
>>The union will appeal. Unions have discretion on which cases to take
>>(bounded by their duty to fairly represent players), so, for example,
>>the players union doesn't have to take Ben Wallace's case, but they
>>have already announced they'll take the suspensions of Artest,
>>Jackson, and O'Neal.
>>
>>And no, Stern doesn't get the final word on this. Like other union
>>collective bargaining contracts, the final decision is made by an
>>outside, neutral arbitrator.--Joe
>
>
> I wonder, can the arbitrator *INCREASE* the suspensions???
>
> Mike (Please???)
Why would you take your case to a judge and expect an increase?

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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

"DC" <noreply RemoveThis @fakeaddress.com> wrote in message news:<mXfod.20818$zx1.8185@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>...
> Of course they'll be appealed! The player's union has already said that they
> are filing the appeals on Monday. Whether they get reduced is another
> matter. Although Sprewell had his 1-year suspension reduced to 68 games.
>

Point in fact that the Sprewell suspension was the longest non
drug-related penalty prior to this Artest incident. Let it be known,
however, that Golden State had already washed their hands of him
before the action was levied so the NBA suspending him was beside the
point. And incidentally they really screwed up Golden State in this
incident. Amen.

Let us now study the past and see what the next longest suspension was
(non drug of course):


KERMIT WASHINGTON 27 GAMES


I'm not a lawyer but I think that its a bit heavy handed to give
Artest a season etc. when the longest suspensions typically run from
10-27 games (non drug of course).

And what of the lack of penalty for the beer throwers? Or the Pistons?
Nay not even Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace! This incident shows that
fans can goad the "enemy team" into getting their players suspended
w/no PROPORTIONALITY or RECIPROCITY for the "allies team".

I expect to see lots of lawsuits from the Pacers alleging damage.
Amen? Amen.

And get some cotton picking security Mr. Stern; haven't y'all learned
from Sept 11th? Guess not, seeing as how the blame is to be spread all
around (and) the Pacers get the heaviest sanctions.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

PhillyJackinAC.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (J S) wrote in message news:<934-41A18BAB-325.TakeThisOut@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net>...
> Not only will it be appealed, but I bet ya Artest is back on the court
> by the All-Star game. Also, Artest could possibly sue the NBA for not
> providing adequate security which led to the situation. Imagine if it
> had been something other than a drink in a cup(Monica Seles stabbing
> comes to mind).
>

Right! There could have been sulfuric acid or cyanide in that
container and Artest would be dead!

>
> Somehow, fans were allowed onto the floor. There is no telling what else
> couldve happened.
> Is Artest blameless? NO!!!! But he shouldnt be suspended for the
> remainder of the season either.
>
> PhillyJack
>

What did Wally Bock say in Bouton's Ball Four? It'll get better, it'll
get better.

Amen.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message

Good screen name.

Anyway, the relevant contract language is as follows. Note at the
very end the "arbitrary and capricious standard" clause.

For the whole CBA, see http://www.nbpa.com/cba/cba.html

Article VI Player Conduct

Section 8. On-Court Conduct.

In addition to its authority under paragraph 5 of the Uniform
Player Contract, the NBA is entitled to promulgate and enforce
reasonable rules governing the conduct of players on the playing court
that do not violate the provisions of this Agreement. Prior to the
date on which any new rule promulgated by the NBA becomes effective,
the NBA shall provide notice of such new rule to the Players
Association and consult with the Players Association with respect
thereto.

Article XXXI Grievance and Arbitration Procedure

Section 1. Scope.

(a) Any dispute (such dispute hereinafter being referred to as
a "Grievance") involving the interpretation or application of, or
compliance with, the provisions of this Agreement or the provisions of
a Player Contract (except as provided in paragraph 9 of a Uniform
Player Contract), including a dispute concerning the validity of a
Player Contract, shall be resolved exclusively by the Grievance
Arbitrator in accordance with the procedures set forth in this
Article; provided, however, that disputes arising under Articles VII,
VIII, X, XI, XII, XIII, XIV, XV, XVI, XXXVII, XXXIX, and XL shall
(except as otherwise specifically provided by Article VII, Section
3(d)(5) above) be determined by the System Arbitrator provided for in
Article XXXII.

(b) The Grievance Arbitrator shall also have jurisdiction over
disputes involving player discipline to the extent set forth in
Section 8 below and over disputes concerning the disposition of funds
deposited in accordance with Section 9 below to the extent set forth
in that Section.

Section 5. Arbitrator's Decision and Award.

(a) Except as set forth in Section 12 below, the Grievance
Arbitrator shall render an Award as soon as practicable. That Award
may be accompanied by a written opinion, or the written opinion may
follow within a reasonable time thereafter. In no event shall the
Award or any written opinion be issued more than thirty (30) days
following the conclusion of a Grievance hearing (or the submission of
post-hearing briefs where applicable). The Award shall constitute
full, final and complete disposition of the Grievance, and shall be
binding upon the player(s) and Team(s) involved and the parties to
this Agreement.

(b) The Grievance Arbitrator shall have jurisdiction and
authority only to: (i) interpret, apply, or determine compliance with
the provisions of this Agreement; (ii) interpret, apply or determine
compliance with the provisions of Player Contracts; (iii) determine
the validity of Player Contracts pursuant to Section 1 of this
Article; (iv) award damages in connection with a proceeding provided
for in Section 11 below; (v) award declaratory relief in connection
with a proceeding initiated by a Team to determine whether such Team
may properly terminate a Player Contract pursuant to paragraph 16(a)
of such Contract, and what, if any, liability such Team would incur as
a result of such termination; and (vi) resolve disputes arising under
Article VII, Section 3(d)(5), Article XXII, Section 5, Article XXVI,
and Article XXXIII in the manner set forth therein. The Grievance
Arbitrator shall not have jurisdiction or authority to add to, detract
from, or alter in any way the provisions of this Agreement (including
the provisions of this subsection) or any Player Contract. Nor, in the
absence of agreement by the NBA and the Players Association, shall the
Grievance Arbitrator have jurisdiction or authority to resolve
questions of substantive arbitrability.

(c) In any Grievance that involves an action taken by the
Commissioner (or his designee) concerning (i) the preservation of the
integrity of, or the maintenance of public confidence in, the game of
basketball, and (ii) a fine and/or suspension that results in a
financial impact to the player of more than $25,000, the Grievance
Arbitrator shall apply an "arbitrary and capricious" standard of
review.

For the whole CBA, see http://www.nbpa.com/cba/cba.html
--Joe
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Jeff Barnes wrote:

> Point in fact that the Sprewell suspension was the longest non
> drug-related penalty prior to this Artest incident. Let it be known,
> however, that Golden State had already washed their hands of him
> before the action was levied so the NBA suspending him was beside the
> point.

Wirhout a suspension annd with his contract voided and in arbrtration he
could have gone to another team if not suspended.

>And incidentally they really screwed up Golden State in this
> incident. Amen.

Who is they? The league? Spree holds no responsibility?

>
> Let us now study the past and see what the next longest suspension was
> (non drug of course):
>
>
> KERMIT WASHINGTON 27 GAMES
>

A few months before during the finals what was then a very large fine of
$2500 was given to two players for a fight, no suspensions, to send a
message in the climate in the NBA at that time. And that fight had the
Philly fans flood onto the floor and the police called in to restore order.
That year (before Kermit that fall) there was over 80 fights in the NBA that
got a player ejected and
it took more than now to even be ejected. There were no automatic toss for
throwing punches, no automatic suspensions. The benches usually emptied and
everyone got into it.
Often just the instigator might be ejected and someone retaliating got a T.

Kermit was not being punished for fighting in a typical manner, he was
punished for connecting and to send a message that fighting was no longer
going to be part of the game.

>
> I'm not a lawyer but I think that its a bit heavy handed to give
> Artest a season etc. when the longest suspensions typically run from
> 10-27 games (non drug of course).

Artest has had a lot of suspensions. The league has escalated fines and
suspension lengths before to get their point across with other players. I
see this like the Kermit punch, they need to send a major message right now
that fighting with fans will not be tolerated.

>
> And what of the lack of penalty for the beer throwers? Or the Pistons?
> Nay not even Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace!

Ben got at least twice as long of suspension as he would have got if Artest
had not escalated the fight into the stands and they just finished the game.
That also sends a message.
How long of a suspension should Rasheed have got for acting purely as a
peacemaker and keeping his head?
10 games for his reputation as a hot head? He has never thrown a punch in
his career in the NBA, only words and rather non-lethal towels.

>This incident shows that
> fans can goad the "enemy team" into getting their players suspended
> w/no PROPORTIONALITY or RECIPROCITY for the "allies team".

The pistons should not have to pay for 3 pacers players lack of personal
responsibility. This is not goading a bear in a cage, basketball players are
supposed to use there brains.

>
> I expect to see lots of lawsuits from the Pacers alleging damage.
> Amen? Amen.

Expect away.... Teams can not sue for damages resulting from fights. It is
in the CBA.

>
> And get some cotton picking security Mr. Stern; haven't y'all learned
> from Sept 11th? Guess not, seeing as how the blame is to be spread all
> around (and) the Pacers get the heaviest sanctions.

Perhaps they should have followed the rules and not have gone into the
stands and/or punch fans.


--
Laurel T
The invention of basketball was not an
accident. It was developed to meet a
need. Those boys simply would not play
"Drop the Handkerchief"
James Naismith
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

In article <593a70fa.0411230413.5faa1235.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
THEJeffBarnes.DeleteThis@webtv.net (Jeff Barnes) wrote:

>
> KERMIT WASHINGTON 27 GAMES
>
> I'm not a lawyer but I think that its a bit heavy handed to give
> Artest a season etc. when the longest suspensions typically run from
> 10-27 games (non drug of course).
>

You're missing something else.

That was in 1977.

It's not like what happened to Kermit happened last week, or even five
years ago. As a precedent, it's pretty weak.

You can't talk about what "typically" happens in this situation because
this situation doesn't typically happen.

> And what of the lack of penalty for the beer throwers? Or the Pistons?
> Nay not even Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace! This incident shows that
> fans can goad the "enemy team" into getting their players suspended
> w/no PROPORTIONALITY or RECIPROCITY for the "allies team".

What do you mean? What did Rasheed do which deserves a suspension? Ben
Wallace's suspension is already about three times as long as someone
would typically get for his action. The Detroit fan who threw a beer has
been banned from all Detroit home games and had his season tickets
revoked.

Quite simply: nobody on the Pistons did anything close to as bad as
what the Pacers did. I agree that the Pistons seem to be getting off
lightly as an organization (no fine, no home games without fans) but the
fact is that Artest bears far more responsibility himself than the
entire Pistons organization and fan base.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<0PidnYX9Gu_-Wz_cRVn-sw.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>...

> > I wonder, can the arbitrator *INCREASE* the suspensions???

> Why would you take your case to a judge and expect an increase?

The safety of the league? I'm not saying that the PA would expect
one, but I think that the arbitrator, in this extreme case, should
have the option to do it.

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Found some more contract language even more directly applicable. The
below seems to indicate that Stern gets the final say.

Section 8. Special Procedure with Respect to Player Discipline.

(a) Any dispute involving (i) a fine or suspension imposed upon a
player by the Commissioner (or his designee) for conduct on the
playing court (regardless of its financial impact on the player), or
(ii) action taken by the Commissioner (or his designee) concerning the
preservation of the integrity of, or the maintenance of public
confidence in, the game of basketball resulting in a financial impact
to the player of $25,000 or less, shall be processed exclusively as
follows:

(i)Within twenty (20) days following written notification of the
action taken by the Commissioner (or his designee), a player affected
thereby or the Players Association may appeal in writing to the
Commissioner.

(ii) Upon the written request of the Players Association, the
Commissioner shall designate a time and place for hearing as soon as
is reasonably practicable following his receipt of the notice of
appeal.

(iii) As soon as reasonably practicable, but not later than twenty
(20) days, following the conclusion of such hearing, the Commissioner
shall render a written decision, which decision shall constitute full,
final and complete disposition of the dispute, and shall be binding
upon the player(s) and Team(s) involved and the parties to this
Agreement.

(iv) In the event such appeal involves a fine or suspension
imposed by the Commissioner's designee, the Commissioner, as a
consequence of such appeal and hearing, shall have authority only to
affirm or reduce such fine or suspension, and shall not have authority
to increase such fine or suspension.

--Joe
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Ron <ronaldinho_m.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ronaldinho_m-186F2F.10074723112004.RemoveThis@individual.net>...
> In article <593a70fa.0411230413.5faa1235.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
> THEJeffBarnes.RemoveThis@webtv.net (Jeff Barnes) wrote:
>
> >
> > KERMIT WASHINGTON 27 GAMES
> >
> > I'm not a lawyer but I think that its a bit heavy handed to give
> > Artest a season etc. when the longest suspensions typically run from
> > 10-27 games (non drug of course).
> >
>
> You're missing something else.
>
> That was in 1977.
>
> It's not like what happened to Kermit happened last week, or even five
> years ago. As a precedent, it's pretty weak.
>
> You can't talk about what "typically" happens in this situation because
> this situation doesn't typically happen.
>
> > And what of the lack of penalty for the beer throwers? Or the Pistons?
> > Nay not even Ben Wallace or Rasheed Wallace! This incident shows that
> > fans can goad the "enemy team" into getting their players suspended
> > w/no PROPORTIONALITY or RECIPROCITY for the "allies team".
>
> The Detroit fan who threw a beer has
> been banned from all Detroit home games and had his season tickets
> revoked.
>

Whoopee. That fan will really suffer.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Michael Falkner wrote:

> "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<0PidnYX9Gu_-Wz_cRVn-sw.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>...
>
>
>>>I wonder, can the arbitrator *INCREASE* the suspensions???
>
>
>>Why would you take your case to a judge and expect an increase?
>
>
> The safety of the league? I'm not saying that the PA would expect
> one, but I think that the arbitrator, in this extreme case, should
> have the option to do it.
>
> Mike
Again, Mike, that makes zero sense. The reason for an appeal is not to
increase sanctions, but decrease them.

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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered?