Will the suspensions be staggered?

"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Lb2dneaupcPa2zncRVn-qg DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
> jslater wrote:
>
> > Found some more contract language even more directly applicable. The
> > below seems to indicate that Stern gets the final say.
> >
>
> Only in the appeal. The case can then be taken to an Arbitrator. Let's
> try to learn a little about the NBA okay?

P.S. Here's what a New York Times article on the incident had to say:

According to Article XXXI, section 8 of the collective
bargaining agreement, a player can appeal a suspension.
Stern then must conduct a hearing, but for an on-court
incident, the ultimate authority rests with the
commissioner Without the possibility of arbitration.

Again, if that's wrong, fine, but I would like to see an explanation
as to why. Not to get snippy, but I'll bet I've been following the
NBA, and labor relations in general, longer than you have.

On the other hand, I thoroughly approve of your opinion on Bush.--Joe
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

jslater wrote:

> "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Lb2dneaupcPa2zncRVn-qg RemoveThis @comcast.com>...
>
>>jslater wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Found some more contract language even more directly applicable. The
>>>below seems to indicate that Stern gets the final say.
>>>
>>
>>Only in the appeal. The case can then be taken to an Arbitrator. Let's
>>try to learn a little about the NBA okay?
>
>
> Let's try to keep it civil, OK? I'm willing to be educated, but
> here's the key language of the section I already posted from the
> contract:
>
> Section 8. Special Procedure with Respect to Player Discipline.
>
> (a) Any dispute involving (i) a fine or suspension imposed upon a
> player by the Commissioner (or his designee) for conduct on the
> playing court (regardless of its financial impact on the player) ...
> shall be processed exclusively as
> follows:
> ...
>
> (iii) ... the Commissioner shall render a written decision, which
> decision shall constitute full, final and complete disposition of the
> dispute, and shall be binding upon the player(s) and Team(s) involved
> and the parties to this
> Agreement.
>
> Now if there is some other clauses that says that "full, final, and
> complete disposition" means it still can be taken to an arbitrator,
> cool, I would be interested in seeing it. But usually in labor
> contracts, that type of language means it *can't* be appealed.--Joe
>
>
>

Again. Take a breath. Stern has final say on what happens on the
court, but not in the stands or the vomitorium as it is technically "off
the court". Therefore, it is an arbitrator issue.

Got it?
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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Bush is the AntiChrist!! wrote:
> jslater wrote:
>
>> "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:<Lb2dneaupcPa2zncRVn-qg DeleteThis @comcast.com>...

>
> Again. Take a breath. Stern has final say on what happens on the
> court, but not in the stands or the vomitorium as it is technically
> "off the court". Therefore, it is an arbitrator issue.
>
> Got it?

http://www.oregonlive.com/sportsflash/basketball/index.ssf?/base/sport.../110129
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Terraholm wrote:
> Bush is the AntiChrist!! wrote:
>> jslater wrote:
>>
>>> "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:<Lb2dneaupcPa2zncRVn-qg DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
>
>>
>> Again. Take a breath. Stern has final say on what happens on the
>> court, but not in the stands or the vomitorium as it is technically
>> "off the court". Therefore, it is an arbitrator issue.
>>
>> Got it?
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/sportsflash/basketball/index.ssf?/base/sport.../110129

- Employing an unexpected strategy in an effort to fight the suspensions
leveled by commissioner David Stern, the NBA players' union is seeking to
have the case heard by an arbitrator.

The union filed an appeal Tuesday on behalf of Indiana Pacers players Ron
Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal, who were suspended for their
roles in a brawl with Detroit Pistons fans last week.

------

Now, Hunter appears to be attempting an end-around to avoid the rule stating
the commissioner has sole authority - and is the final avenue of appeal -
over matters of discipline involving on-court behavior.

"The players association's efforts to bring this matter before an arbitrator
ignores the plain language of the collective bargaining agreement and the
consistent past practice of the parties and will ultimately fail," NBA
spokesman Brian McIntyre said.

Stern would normally have 20 days to rule on an appeal of an on-court
discipline matter, and it was unclear whether the union's appeal strategy
would put this case under that timetable.

"The action taken by the commissioner sets a new high-water mark in terms of
the kind of discipline he feels he can impose," Hunter said. "I think he has
exceeded his authority and should be subject to review and challenge."

In other developments:

The players' union was contemplating taking its case to federal court. A
similar strategy failed in 1997 when the union contested the suspensions
handed out to four members of the New York Knicks for leaving the bench
during a fight in a playoff game against the Miami Heat.

In that case, U.S. District Judge Jed S. Rakoff cited article XXXI, section
8 of the league's collective bargaining agreement establishing the
commissioner as the complete and final authority on discipline for what
happens on the court.

The language, the judge said, is "so plain, so clear, so unequivocal, so
on-point to the dispute that underlies this controversy."

"In that case we were seeking an injunction. We may not pursue an injunction
if we pursue this in federal court," Hunter said, adding the union will
argue that since some of the punishable behavior happened in the stands, it
should not fall under the definition of "on-court behavior."

"We think the court is limited to the court itself, the 90-by-50 piece of
hardwood, and the benches," Hunter said.

In 1998, the union successfully appealed the one-year suspension Stern gave
to Latrell Sprewell, then with the Golden State Warriors, for attacking
coach P.J. Carlesimo at practice. It was reduced by an arbitrator to 68
games.

The difference between Sprewell's case and the current one is that
Sprewell's attack on Carlesimo happened at practice, so it was not
considered on-court behavior and was subject to the arbitration provisions
of the collective bargaining agreement.

The suspensions also could be contested by the Pacers, who have the right
under NBA bylaws to appeal the commissioner's decision to the league's Board
of Governors.

No NBA team has ever made such an appeal, according to the league.

Pacers spokesman David Benner said the team had not yet decided if or how it
might contest the penalties.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

jslater wrote:

>I thoroughly approve of your opinion on Bush.--Joe

Then you are INDEED a smart man.
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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

yorgle7 RemoveThis @yahoo.com (Yorgle) wrote:

But it wasn't something else, like a knife or gun. A fan coming at a
player with a knife is totally different from a fan tossing a cup of
liquid at a player. Fans aren't prohibited from having a plastic cup of
liquid in the stands. So you cannot suggest that security broke down by
allowing a fan to have a plastic cup. I haven't heard anyone suggest
that security should have been able to prevent a fan from tossing a
plastic cup.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My point was what if it had been somethng like hot coffee or hot
chocolate? Most people in the stands, if they had something spilled on
them, would probably turn around and try to find the person who spilled
it on them and then jump on their case. Athletes are no different. The
shock of getting something thrown at or spilled on affects them just as
much as it would us.

Athletes are no different than the fans when it comes to attitudes about
having stuff spilled on them. Imagine how pissed you wouldve been if the
HAD been coffee or chocolate. That cup couldve affected the player's
career if it had burned them. Luckily for Artest that the cup was a cold
cup and didnt have anything HOT in it.

PhillyJack
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

True @ Nope .. ironically David Stern rules on the appeals.

Appeals and suspensions are mute points IF Auburn Hills Police convict
them and they get 5 to 10 years in jail.

Stay tuned for the next Chapter.
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Lb2dneeupcOP2zncRVn-qg.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>...
> Michael Falkner wrote:
>
> > "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<0PidnYX9Gu_-Wz_cRVn-sw.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>...
> >
> >
> >>>I wonder, can the arbitrator *INCREASE* the suspensions???
> >
> >
> >>Why would you take your case to a judge and expect an increase?
> >
> >
> > The safety of the league? I'm not saying that the PA would expect
> > one, but I think that the arbitrator, in this extreme case, should
> > have the option to do it.

> Again, Mike, that makes zero sense. The reason for an appeal is not to
> increase sanctions, but decrease them.

OK, OK...

I see where we're getting in different directions. You're confusing
that I thought that the arbitrator would increase them on the request
of the PA.

I was simply asking that, upon the appeal, could the arbitrator tell
Billy Hunter to go screw himself and increase the bans?

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<l8SdnRxYj_ersjjcRVn-rA RemoveThis @comcast.com>...
> jslater wrote:
>
> > "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Lb2dneaupcPa2zncRVn-qg RemoveThis @comcast.com>...
> >
> >>jslater wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Found some more contract language even more directly applicable. The
> >>>below seems to indicate that Stern gets the final say.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Only in the appeal. The case can then be taken to an Arbitrator. Let's
> >>try to learn a little about the NBA okay?
> >
> >
> > Let's try to keep it civil, OK? I'm willing to be educated, but
> > here's the key language of the section I already posted from the
> > contract:
> >
> > Section 8. Special Procedure with Respect to Player Discipline.
> >
> > (a) Any dispute involving (i) a fine or suspension imposed upon a
> > player by the Commissioner (or his designee) for conduct on the
> > playing court (regardless of its financial impact on the player) ...
> > shall be processed exclusively as
> > follows:
> > ...
> >
> > (iii) ... the Commissioner shall render a written decision, which
> > decision shall constitute full, final and complete disposition of the
> > dispute, and shall be binding upon the player(s) and Team(s) involved
> > and the parties to this
> > Agreement.
> >
> > Now if there is some other clauses that says that "full, final, and
> > complete disposition" means it still can be taken to an arbitrator,
> > cool, I would be interested in seeing it. But usually in labor
> > contracts, that type of language means it *can't* be appealed.--Joe
> >
> >
> >
>
> Again. Take a breath. Stern has final say on what happens on the
> court, but not in the stands or the vomitorium as it is technically "off
> the court". Therefore, it is an arbitrator issue.
>
> Got it?
>
My breathing is just fine, and I *understand* your point, but I'm not
sure that I agree with it. You are saying that if a fight breaks out,
and players go into the stands, it's not technically "on the court."

Now tell me if you understand the following. I think that the "on
court/off court" language most likely intends to distinguish between
"behavior during a game" and "behavior outside the workplace." So by
my reading, "on the court" doesn't literally mean "if I step off the
court into the stands during a game, it's no longer 'on the court.'"
rather "off the court" would mean something like a drunk driving
violation.

And apparently Billy Hunter agrees with my reading. So why are you so
sure you're right?--Joe
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

Michael Falkner wrote:

> "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Lb2dneeupcOP2zncRVn-qg DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
>
>>Michael Falkner wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<0PidnYX9Gu_-Wz_cRVn-sw DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I wonder, can the arbitrator *INCREASE* the suspensions???
>>>
>>>
>>>>Why would you take your case to a judge and expect an increase?
>>>
>>>
>>>The safety of the league? I'm not saying that the PA would expect
>>>one, but I think that the arbitrator, in this extreme case, should
>>>have the option to do it.
>
>
>>Again, Mike, that makes zero sense. The reason for an appeal is not to
>>increase sanctions, but decrease them.
>
>
> OK, OK...
>
> I see where we're getting in different directions. You're confusing
> that I thought that the arbitrator would increase them on the request
> of the PA.
>
> I was simply asking that, upon the appeal, could the arbitrator tell
> Billy Hunter to go screw himself and increase the bans?
>
> Mike
No.

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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

jslater wrote:

> "Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<l8SdnRxYj_ersjjcRVn-rA DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
>
>>jslater wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Bush is the AntiChrist!! " <tle_mgr DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Lb2dneaupcPa2zncRVn-qg DeleteThis @comcast.com>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>jslater wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Found some more contract language even more directly applicable. The
>>>>>below seems to indicate that Stern gets the final say.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Only in the appeal. The case can then be taken to an Arbitrator. Let's
>>>>try to learn a little about the NBA okay?
>>>
>>>
>>>Let's try to keep it civil, OK? I'm willing to be educated, but
>>>here's the key language of the section I already posted from the
>>>contract:
>>>
>>>Section 8. Special Procedure with Respect to Player Discipline.
>>>
>>>(a) Any dispute involving (i) a fine or suspension imposed upon a
>>>player by the Commissioner (or his designee) for conduct on the
>>>playing court (regardless of its financial impact on the player) ...
>>>shall be processed exclusively as
>>>follows:
>>> ...
>>>
>>> (iii) ... the Commissioner shall render a written decision, which
>>>decision shall constitute full, final and complete disposition of the
>>>dispute, and shall be binding upon the player(s) and Team(s) involved
>>>and the parties to this
>>>Agreement.
>>>
>>>Now if there is some other clauses that says that "full, final, and
>>>complete disposition" means it still can be taken to an arbitrator,
>>>cool, I would be interested in seeing it. But usually in labor
>>>contracts, that type of language means it *can't* be appealed.--Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Again. Take a breath. Stern has final say on what happens on the
>>court, but not in the stands or the vomitorium as it is technically "off
>>the court". Therefore, it is an arbitrator issue.
>>
>>Got it?
>>
>
> My breathing is just fine, and I *understand* your point, but I'm not
> sure that I agree with it. You are saying that if a fight breaks out,
> and players go into the stands, it's not technically "on the court."
>

Uh huh.

> Now tell me if you understand the following. I think that the "on
> court/off court" language most likely intends to distinguish between
> "behavior during a game" and "behavior outside the workplace." So by
> my reading, "on the court" doesn't literally mean "if I step off the
> court into the stands during a game, it's no longer 'on the court.'"
> rather "off the court" would mean something like a drunk driving
> violation.

Your entitled to that opinion.

>
> And apparently Billy Hunter agrees with my reading. So why are you so
> sure you're right?--Joe

Uhm, Hunter is the one how said that it was an arbitrator issue, because
most of the fighting happened in the stands.


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 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

yorgle7.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (Yorgle) wrote in message news:<3c255106.0411220830.72cef037.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>...
> PhillyJackinAC.DeleteThis@webtv.net (J S) wrote in message news:<934-41A18BAB-325.DeleteThis@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net>...
> > Not only will it be appealed, but I bet ya Artest is back on the court
> > by the All-Star game. Also, Artest could possibly sue the NBA for not
> > providing adequate security which led to the situation. Imagine if it
> > had been something other than a drink in a cup(Monica Seles stabbing
> > comes to mind).
> >
>
> But it wasn't something else, like a knife or gun. A fan coming at a
> player with a knife is totally different from a fan tossing a cup of
> liquid at a player. Fans aren't prohibited from having a plastic cup
> of liquid in the stands. So you cannot suggest that security broke
> down by allowing a fan to have a plastic cup. I haven't heard anyone
> suggest that security should have been able to prevent a fan from
> tossing a plastic cup.

Oh come on, it would be like Reagan's star wars. They would use
automatic lasers to blow up the cup before it ever hit anything. That
would be so much safer. ;)
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered? 

> >
> > And apparently Billy Hunter agrees with my reading. So why are you so
> > sure you're right?--Joe
>
> Uhm, Hunter is the one how said that it was an arbitrator issue, because
> most of the fighting happened in the stands.
>
Do you have a cite, link, or at least quote for that? Because the
quote I've seen from Hunter was him complaining about the fact that
the CBA seems to give Stern the last word in this.

By the way, I'm not arguing about what would be better or worse CBA
language, or what the just result should be. I'm a big believer in
labor arbitrations. But I'm not sure this particular contract
language gives the suspended Pacers a right to an arbitration.--Joe
 >> Stay informed about: Will the suspensions be staggered?